Author Topic: St. Thomas Aquinas proved existence of God in 5 different ways -Remarkable Man  (Read 11483 times)

Offline 510bhan

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and this everyone understands to be God. etc. [with its variations]

But NOT everyone understands or believes this to be the case

TA's faith/belief led him to this argument -- fair enough, we all have our opinions, but it is not proof. Might be enough for him but others could challenge it.


Offline Louis D. Thorpe

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and this everyone understands to be God. etc. [with its variations]

But NOT everyone understands or believes this to be the case

TA's faith/belief led him to this argument -- fair enough, we all have our opinions, but it is not proof. Might be enough for him but others could challenge it.



Very true. Snowhite did not exist when he wrote that.

Offline Mark H

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Mat

Did he have anything to say about why the god he believed in was such a git? Or was he just happy to prove existence and leave it at that? Because proof of existence is the easy bit, because it is at least as likely as unlikely that some external force created the U. What is harder to understand is why seemingly rational people keep insisting that such a force is benign when ALL the evidence is to the contrary.

Mark
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Offline Gyppo

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D/ I am still not amused.

Shall I continue, because this thread has moved from divine enlightenment to in-the-gutter blasphemy, and that proves, without doubt, benevolent existence.

Sorry, Mat, but it proves no such thing.  It could even be argued that the existence of this thread proves the exact opposite, that this is a chaotic world in which everyone can do just as they please.  Provided they are willing to accept the consequences.  No word or action is without consequence, be it small or large.

What I do know is that someone with sincere beliefs, and I'm inclined to think your Greek Orthodox background is indeed sincere, is setting themselves up as a target for those of opposing religions, or indeed no religion at all.

What we have here is a witch-hunt in reverse, and you have chosen to tie yourself to the stake of martyrdom.

Undoing the ropes and stepping aside isn't defeat.

This is a debate.  An unruly one, but still only a debate.

Something similar happened a few years ago when a member of the Jewish faith chose to engage in full on hostilities rather than accepting that many of us see things differently.  That person is still a member, but it took a long time for the scars to heal.

Between two deeply entrenched opposites there can never really be discussion, but sometimes even sworn enemies can respect each other's sincerity and agree to differ.

But as writers we love to play with shades, and nuances, and interpretations, and wilful misunderstandings.  It's what we do.  It's what we are.

We also try to educate, but that is a very personal thing and one man's education is another's indoctrination.

Gyppo
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Offline Louis D. Thorpe

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Sorry, Mat, but it proves no such thing.  It could even be argued that the existence of this thread proves the exact opposite, that this is a chaotic world in which everyone can do just as they please.  Provided they are willing to accept the consequences.  No word or action is without consequence, be it small or large.

What I do know is that someone with sincere beliefs, and I'm inclined to think your Greek Orthodox background is indeed sincere, is setting themselves up as a target for those of opposing religions, or indeed no religion at all.

What we have here is a witch-hunt in reverse, and you have chosen to tie yourself to the stake of martyrdom.

Undoing the ropes and stepping aside isn't defeat.

This is a debate.  An unruly one, but still only a debate.

Something similar happened a few years ago when a member of the Jewish faith chose to engage in full on hostilities rather than accepting that many of us see things differently.  That person is still a member, but it took a long time for the scars to heal.

Between two deeply entrenched opposites there can never really be discussion, but sometimes even sworn enemies can respect each other's sincerity and agree to differ.

But as writers we love to play with shades, and nuances, and interpretations, and wilful misunderstandings.  It's what we do.  It's what we are.

We also try to educate, but that is a very personal thing and one man's education is another's indoctrination.

Gyppo

You are bang on, except the suggestion that I do not accept that many see things differently. You are also wrong about the suggestion that I am motivated by my faith. There are no sacred cows in my world. I am an open-minded teacher, and if one man's education is another's indoctrination, then I/we have failed to connect.

I have an excellent quotation to share which I think illustrates your point and I will post it here as soon as I find it -I think it will also help to clarify my position. (By the way, my words which you cite in your post were supposed to be a joke.)

My only bias, with respect to what I have thus far said on this thread is this; I genuinely believe that Tommie was and still is more intelligent than all of us put together, and if there is anything wrong with that, then that is the only real fault you can point to. So if I analyze my part on this thread thus far, I think I was subconsciously trying to defend Tommie's intellect rather than trying to prove the existence of God.

« Last Edit: November 03, 2015, 05:35:19 PM by matwilson »

Offline Gyppo

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Cheers, Mat.
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Offline thatollie

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Shall I continue,

Please don't, you're rather boring.
Never make a decision standing up.

Offline Mark H

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TO

He's not that boring. Don't you find it interesting that a man of the 21st century put's forward ideas form the middle ages as if they were still relevant today? It would be like me claiming that the Greeks were right and everything is made form Earth, Air, Fire, Water and Chutney.

MH
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Offline thatollie

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TO

He's not that boring. Don't you find it interesting that a man of the 21st century put's forward ideas form the middle ages as if they were still relevant today? It would be like me claiming that the Greeks were right and everything is made form Earth, Air, Fire, Water and Chutney.

MH

Well, the greeks were a smart bunch until... that thing that made them dumb.
Never make a decision standing up.

Offline Vogel

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By the way, Mark. I did what you said, and nothing has happened. My problems are still here, I'm sad to say. I still have debts, my day-time job sadly doesn't pay enough, and I'm no where near as good-looking as I would like to be. I'm also underpaid and I haven't written a lick all day.

You wouldn't happen to have a toll-free number that I could call, would you? Someone to walk me through this step by step and make sure that I am doing everything correctly? I am going to be really disappointed if this doesn't work.

One more thing: Do these elves do any sort of humanitarian/outreach work? I need my cell phone bill paid.


So if I analyze my part on this thread thus far, I think I was subconsciously trying to defend Tommie's intellect rather than trying to prove the existence of God.



But really, Matt, why bother? I think that you thought the concept was interesting, and that's fine. I don't fault you for your beliefs or enthusiasms. Either way, I've had a bit of fun with this, so I thank you.

Offline Nomine

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My only bias, with respect to what I have thus far said on this thread is this; I genuinely believe that Tommie was and still is more intelligent than all of us put together, and if there is anything wrong with that, then that is the only real fault you can point to. So if I analyze my part on this thread thus far, I think I was subconsciously trying to defend Tommie's intellect rather than trying to prove the existence of God.

The only intelligence to Tommie is the fact he made something simple rather convoluted, playing on the average joe's ignorance, to say "yes god exists" when in all actuality every single line proves otherwise if you can unravel what he is saying.

I'll simplify what I initially said, as it was obviously a head-grazer.

Existence doesn't exist without motion, but motion doesn't exist without existence. So God couldn't have existed before motion existed because existence didn't exist without motion.

God didn't exist without existence. It is literally that simple. God didn't make existence, existence made God. In every sense God was made by existence - or to simplify even further, it was only the existence of Man that made God. Not the other way around.

Your Saint Tommie says it himself.

But that seems to the game of the slippery eel known as religion - another example would be the fanatical anti-gay mindset of religious; and yet lo & behold Vatican City was one of the earliest regions in modern history [1890] to make legal same sex sexual behaviors.

D/ I am still not amused.

Shall I continue, because this thread has moved from divine enlightenment to in-the-gutter blasphemy, and that proves, without doubt, benevolent existence.


You succeeded, my goldfish is indeed enlightened.


Well, the greeks were a smart bunch until... that thing that made them dumb.

Interesting comment - scientists say if we could bring a Roman soldier forward in time, he'd be considered a genius amongst geniuses. So was "something" a cause to the dumbing down of humans?

Offline Nomine

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By the way, Mark. I did what you said, and nothing has happened. My problems are still here, I'm sad to say. I still have debts, my day-time job sadly doesn't pay enough, and I'm no where near as good-looking as I would like to be. I'm also underpaid and I haven't written a lick all day.

You wouldn't happen to have a toll-free number that I could call, would you? Someone to walk me through this step by step and make sure that I am doing everything correctly? I am going to be really disappointed if this doesn't work.

One more thing: Do these elves do any sort of humanitarian/outreach work? I need my cell phone bill paid.


... Strange. You mustn't have done something right.

I had a fantastic day. Between laughing so hard at a colleague - work at a methadone clinic, you get the "loveliest" clients there, all day - who was five seconds from flipping her lid because she touched something "sticky" I was nearly crying [while 10 feet away the pharmacist is trying to console a patient whose father just died, I nearly swallowed my tongue as the saying goes]... to being told by the pharmacist [I just graduated pharmacy school myself] that I am not really at work but "living a nightmare" I had a blast.

Only problem, my dog's poo just wouldn't pick itself up and throw itself in the bin.

Offline Louis D. Thorpe

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By the way, Mark. I did what you said, and nothing has happened. My problems are still here, I'm sad to say. I still have debts, my day-time job sadly doesn't pay enough, and I'm no where near as good-looking as I would like to be. I'm also underpaid and I haven't written a lick all day.

You wouldn't happen to have a toll-free number that I could call, would you? Someone to walk me through this step by step and make sure that I am doing everything correctly? I am going to be really disappointed if this doesn't work.

One more thing: Do these elves do any sort of humanitarian/outreach work? I need my cell phone bill paid.


But really, Matt, why bother? I think that you thought the concept was interesting, and that's fine. I don't fault you for your beliefs or enthusiasms. Either way, I've had a bit of fun with this, so I thank you.


Sure am glad of that. Life is too short to argue. I don't even mind the hostility because I understand strong, alternate points of view -certainly not all the reasons behind them but enough to be sympathetic.

And I was emboldened after talking to Connor Alfred Barwin yesterday, the author of the The Degeneration of the Species because he is of the opinion that the human brain is devolving. I think it has to do with cellphones and Google but not sure.

His proof?  Donald Trump.

I am still an agnostic when it comes to assessing current events though -I think I'll wait for the result of America's presidential election before I chime in.

Take everthing I am saying with a grain of salt because it is now 2.42 am in Greece and I am half asleep.

All this diversity should actually please us. I think it's what philosophers call "idols of the mind" that makes it very difficult to agree.

Offline Gyppo

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All this diversity should actually please us. I think it's what philosophers call "idols of the mind" that makes it very difficult to agree.

An idle mind will create its own gods ;-)
My website is currently having a holiday, but will return like the $6,000,000 man.  Bigger, stronger, etc.

In the meantime, why not take pity on a starving author and visit my book sales page at http://stores.lulu.com/gyppo1