Author Topic: Thoughts about new member reviews  (Read 12715 times)

Offline Mrs N

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Re: Thoughts about new member reviews
« Reply #60 on: April 01, 2014, 07:37:02 PM »
Just for the record, I did not send Wolf any PM's.

Me neither, wouldn't dare!!!! ;D ;D

I would love to do as Wolfe suggests and review more, but often I just read the reviewers review because a lot of the time I have nothing to add to the mix.

Wolfe talks about stuff I've never even heard of, Hillwalker gave someone a lesson on apostrophy usage, 510ban does detailed break downs of work, LRSuda saw me out of trouble, I could go on and on about the generosity people give with their knowledge and time.

A newbie posted work recently, and when the crits weren't to their liking said, 'ok, I'll give up writing', and everyone, and I mean everyone was soooo nice. Me? I was tempted to post, ' fine, give up then.'

I remember when I first had a critique, years ago, I was gob-smacked they didn't LOVE my work!! ;D Of course it was painful to be told something different to what I believed, but the need to write soon overcame any objections.

The only thing in defense of newbies is everyone has their own agenda. I came on this site not only for feedback on my story, but for an understanding of on-line writing communities. (I had only been on one other, and that was only because I'd won a critique. They were a bit precious about reviews too, but I didn't understand the undercurrents--must have been having a blonde moment!!) I still struggle at times, but I'm glad I've stuck with it. People can only be who they are. I love this forum and what it offers, and if we lose a few, for whatever reason, so be it.    
 
« Last Edit: April 01, 2014, 07:58:54 PM by Mrs N »

Offline 510bhan

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Re: Thoughts about new member reviews
« Reply #61 on: April 01, 2014, 07:37:22 PM »
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Offline 2par

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Re: Thoughts about new member reviews
« Reply #62 on: April 01, 2014, 11:29:48 PM »
I have really liked this thread. It's not often that people have their say about anything, and examining all the different aspects of something is not just important sometimes, but kind of liberating. Thanks all.

Offline Neghe

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Re: Thoughts about new member reviews
« Reply #63 on: April 02, 2014, 01:03:12 AM »
“Poetry is what happens when nothing else can.”― Charles Bukowski

Offline DGSquared

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Re: Thoughts about new member reviews
« Reply #64 on: April 02, 2014, 02:05:13 AM »
http://youtu.be/z4PkMPAlMFo

Violence of the Lambs?

A lot of people put a lot of work into that clip. Even so, I can't help but feel that 1:59 of my time could have been better spent.  ;) Thanks for sharing?  8)

On the other hand, this thread has been a worthy read.

Perhaps this thread could be suggested as a reading prerequisite to anyone seeking a critique. It does cover the full spectrum of ideals and potential learning opportunities offered by the sages among us.

As much as I fear a harsh critique, I have never been ungrateful for any time spent by anyone offering honest feedback.
Critiquing takes time and energy.

I haven't read the rules since I first started here but, I thought it was a common courtesy to try to do a few thoughtful reviews yourself before you ask for one.
Having said that, if you are a new or rusty writer, knowing what, exactly, is helpful to offer in a review can be daunting or a bit intimidating.  

Maybe something should be mentioned in the Stickies that touch on the need for appreciation when someone goes to the trouble of reading and then actually reviewing your work.

~Deb
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 02:09:48 AM by DGSquared »
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Offline heidi52

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Re: Thoughts about new member reviews
« Reply #65 on: April 02, 2014, 06:44:48 AM »
They don't read the rules now, adding more isn't going to help. And I know there is a sticky called critiquing for the shy or something similar. You get better at giving feedback the more you give.

I read an interesting statistic this morning, and it bolsters my argument that most newbies are going to leave no matter how they are treated. However, I was probably way too generous with my 10% estimate.

In the US they offer free University classes online from some of the top colleges. 49% of those who enrolled dropped out after viewing a single lecture. Of the ones who remained only 4% completed the course.  So that's about 2% who stick it out.

Why would it be any different here?

Offline Alice, a Country Gal

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Re: Thoughts about new member reviews
« Reply #66 on: April 02, 2014, 09:57:46 AM »
Heidi and others are right. If you read or re-read the forum guidelines and the guidelines posted as stickies on the prose and poetry boards, you will see that critiques and response are covered.

Unfortunately, as the saying goes, "We can lead them to water . . . "

I'm sure many of you have seen when a newbie make their first post as one asking for critique, one or another of the mods. try to steer them to the Welcome Board and guidelines. Some times it works, sometimes it doesn't. Just so you know, we also PM some newbies about such things, with the same results I've just mentioned.

There is only so much mods. or members can do. Some will do what they want to do. Period. 
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Offline Neghe

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Re: Thoughts about new member reviews
« Reply #67 on: April 02, 2014, 12:53:16 PM »
Okay it's time for this. Most people do not have what it takes to teach other people. If it pisses your off that people don't lessen to what you are saying then you do not have what it takes to teach.

Teaching (anything) is straight out repetition like: The only purpose for dialogue is to pass information, reveal character, and move the story forward.

Just as fiction writers have to suspend the reader's disbelief, so does the teacher have to break through the student's cognitive disconnect before the message can stick.

If constant repetition of things like: the only things you must do at the beginning of a story is, introduce the main character(s), establish setting, and move the story forward, is too frustrating for you then, save yourself the torment and give a not so detailed critique (though hit the most irksome bits you see) and just move on. No need for any drama, histrionics or whatever.They will learn or they will not--it's not your problem.

In other words...chill out and let those that can deal with all the whining deal with it.    

« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 03:30:00 PM by Neghe »
“Poetry is what happens when nothing else can.”― Charles Bukowski

Offline Dawn

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Re: Thoughts about new member reviews
« Reply #68 on: April 02, 2014, 02:56:15 PM »
Okay it's time for this. Most people do not have what it takes to teach other people. If it pisses your off that people don't lessen to what you are saying then you do not have what it takes to teach.

Teaching (anything) is straight out repetition like: The only purpose for dialogue is to pass information, reveal character, and move the story forward.

Just as fiction writers have to suspend the reader's disbelief, so does the teacher have to break through the student's cognitive disconnect before the message can stick.

If constant repetition of things like: the only things you must do at the beginning of a story is, introduce the main character(s), establish setting, and move the story forward, then save yourself the torment and give a not so detailed critique (though hit the most irksome bits you see) and just move on. No need for any drama, histrionics or whatever.They will learn or they will not--it's not your problem.

In other words...chill out and let those that can deal with all the whining deal with it.   



Hang on, let's not get confused here. I don't feel qualified to teach, but I will critique. There is a clear difference here.
Time to take it serious and get the job done

Offline Neghe

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Re: Thoughts about new member reviews
« Reply #69 on: April 02, 2014, 03:28:36 PM »
Really...? That is not going on here? Then if you feel you can not help someone improve their writing then what exactly are you trying to achieve by pointing out to them what you think is wrong with their writing? I am not making any distinctions between teaching little things or big things--trying to help someone improve IS teaching.

My point is, part of the learning experience is whining, twisting and bending over backward trying make something work (or trying to convince someone that it is, in fact, working) when, it just isn't going to work.

All we can do is allow them to exhaust all the arguments in their attempt so that, eventually, they will be ready to except the truth and move into the place where they can finally start to really learn what fiction writing is all about.  
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 03:30:57 PM by Neghe »
“Poetry is what happens when nothing else can.”― Charles Bukowski

Offline Dawn

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Re: Thoughts about new member reviews
« Reply #70 on: April 02, 2014, 03:35:09 PM »
Really...? That is not going on here? Then if you feel you can not help someone improve their writing then what exactly are you trying to achieve by pointing out to them what you think is wrong with their writing? I am not making any distinctions between teaching little things or big things--trying to help someone improve IS teaching.

My point is, part of the learning experience is whining, twisting and bending over backward trying make something work (or trying to convince someone that it is, in fact, working) when, it just isn't going to work.

All we can do is allow them to exhaust all the arguments in their attempt so that, eventually, they will be ready to except the truth and move into the place where they can finally start to really learn what fiction writing is all about.  

I feel you're missing one crucial point, Neghe. I critique to learn. I can point out others mistakes in the hope I will learn from them. Not the other way round. Maybe I'm wrong though.
Time to take it serious and get the job done

Offline bri h

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Re: Thoughts about new member reviews
« Reply #71 on: April 02, 2014, 03:37:32 PM »
I agree with you, Dawn. I learn more when critting. Well said. B
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Offline Neghe

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Re: Thoughts about new member reviews
« Reply #72 on: April 02, 2014, 03:46:20 PM »
I feel you're missing one crucial point, Neghe. I critique to learn. I can point out others mistakes in the hope I will learn from them. Not the other way round. Maybe I'm wrong though.

And teaches teach to learn as well.

The problem people are having here is ego. They feel they are not getting the respect dew. So, just like a two year old they through a tantrum to fill their need for attention.

I say let everyone do as they will, and don't look to others for the respect you feel you need. You get that through achievements out in the real world.   
“Poetry is what happens when nothing else can.”― Charles Bukowski

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Re: Thoughts about new member reviews
« Reply #73 on: April 02, 2014, 04:01:51 PM »
This isn't helpful. In fact, it's downright disrespectful to the people who offer their help for free. And it's also completely untrue. If you think someone like Sio, Hillwalker or Clarius offers their opinions to get their egos stroked, you couldn't be more wrong.

In fact, you're dead wrong.

As far as me? Oh sure. (laugh) I have plenty of ego to go around. But I certainly don't need some no-name ninny, who asks for an opinion, and then leaves in a huff because they didn't like it, to jerk my jollies and get joy from it.

But that, as they say, is another topic, and this thread has apparently run its course.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 04:06:00 PM by Wolfe »

Offline Neghe

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Re: Thoughts about new member reviews
« Reply #74 on: April 02, 2014, 04:03:57 PM »

No I don't think Sio, Hillwalker or Clarius give critiques for ego strokes...but then, they don't throw tantrums either so...
“Poetry is what happens when nothing else can.”― Charles Bukowski