Author Topic: He Won’t Reverse the Decision  (Read 10352 times)

Offline heidi52

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Re: He Won’t Reverse the Decision
« Reply #45 on: January 08, 2014, 01:50:20 PM »

Can people change? Would we accept they have if their actions show such?

If you had asked me that question when I was young I would have said Yes, of course they can.

If you had asked me in middle age I would have said, some people can change, but it takes a lot of motivation and unflagging resolve.

Since you asked today all I can say is "A leopard can't change his spots."  ;) 8)


Offline 510bhan

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Re: He Won’t Reverse the Decision
« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2014, 01:56:09 PM »
I think it also depends on what they have to change and what age they are when they try to effect it. Some people, if young enough, can be retrained/reprogrammed/reconditioned, others when they are older can have a certain wisdom and realise the mistakes they have made and make a genuine effort to make change. Guess it's one of those things we can't generalise about because it is so subjective and often relies on what personal baggage we bring to the situation.

Thanks for your thoughts. ;)

Offline Mark H

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Re: He Won’t Reverse the Decision
« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2014, 01:58:14 PM »
In the poem change is artificiality induced by chemical means. It would be like putting me on a program of daily cannabis and then saying: Wow!! Mark's changed; he's become really mellow.
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Offline 510bhan

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Re: He Won’t Reverse the Decision
« Reply #48 on: January 08, 2014, 02:01:15 PM »
 ;D ;D ;D ;D

Another good point . . . so how do we 'judge' change? It might be chemically altered and his attitude may remain the same despite the new actions. More food for thought. ;)

Mark? Full-time mellow? That's even more implausible than the poem's premise! :D :D :D

Offline Victor

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Re: He Won’t Reverse the Decision
« Reply #49 on: January 08, 2014, 09:59:50 PM »
That a rapist derives a sense of power from his exploits is a truism. Nietzsche famously argued that all human actions are exertions of that will to power. But in case of sexual compulsions there are a plethora of complex factors at work ranging from, like I said, sociopathy, hatred, belligerence, childhood history, substance abuse, sociological/cultural/religious modeling, hormonal and neurological profiles and so on.

Hence, to say that a man will change from being a "beast" or a "monster" to a "sensitive lover" because one of his means of expression, that is, his sex drive, is taken away is akin to saying that taking away the gun from a mass murderer and putting a sickle in his hand will make him a fabulous and gentle gardener because he'd derive the same sense of power from killing weed instead of people while at the same time being useful to community. To change thus, he'd have to undergo an exhaustive transformation at numerous levels- which is the topic of clinical research- and not just have his erection snatched.

Be it fact or fiction- when you are writing within the realm of the possible and overlook the obvious logical connections at play- there's a risk of sounding either naive or lacking of thought, and that's where my criticism of this piece comes from.
And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. -ECCLESIASTES 1:17

Offline Neghe

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Re: He Won’t Reverse the Decision
« Reply #50 on: January 09, 2014, 12:59:19 AM »

The kind of personality that would use drugs to have his way, is a rapist. And seeing how most rape is not about sex, but rather is about control, violence,  fetishism, perversion, and or necrophilia, chemical castration will do nothing to diminish any of those compulsions. These kinds of people (if you can call them that) can not form normal relationships--I mean obviously...since when is it normal to subject a loved one to possible dead by overdose simple so you can perform pseudo-sadistic sexual experiments on them. Seems you missed the whole concept love and compassion if you were to think that sort of thing normal.

Psychology knows a good deal about this sort of thing--philosophy does not. Best stick to what works rather than stepping out onto some thin ice of maybes.     
“Poetry is what happens when nothing else can.”― Charles Bukowski

Offline 510bhan

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Re: He Won’t Reverse the Decision
« Reply #51 on: January 09, 2014, 07:50:21 AM »
Thanks guys, appreciate your knowledgeable input.

Indeed the piece maybe naïve or lacking in thought.

If the poem was meant as an academic study, it would never have made the page but as it was written to provoke thought, whether positive or negative for the reader, and whether expressed in a reply or not, it appears to have done that. There could be many better approaches, there could be prettier words, stronger imagery, a different subject, a point of view offered with balanced argument supported by respected and well-received research . . . but it lacks these things.

People have reacted to the bad *show* words in S1 but, in my mind anyway, they were applied to him as part of the assessment/judgement when his case came before the court -- their words. Yet, if his crime was so heinous, why no jail time? The reader has heard nothing from the defendant. I know, another weakness that had possibly misled the reader, but it is simply a poem and not a report for the judiciary or the victim support services.

It's an interesting topic in the British news at the moment. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25648078

Offline duck

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Re: He Won’t Reverse the Decision
« Reply #52 on: January 09, 2014, 12:09:21 PM »
Hi
The question that is asked is: why does a man rape?
Perhaps we could lay it out along side the question: Why do other men not rape?

While making some valid points you must realise that the form of comparison you make between the rapist and the gardener may sound useful and create a fancy picture but is just as untenable a way to argue a case as the poem seems to be in your eyes.

It does not stand up in a debate.
Duck

Offline Neghe

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Re: He Won’t Reverse the Decision
« Reply #53 on: January 09, 2014, 05:11:17 PM »

The article posted is shocking to say the least. Just the thought of half of the convicted pedophiles were not sentenced to jail time, even though they abused children under the age of 13, is in itself criminal. Then the article goes on to say that 94% of those convicted of rape did in fact get jail sentences. This is rather odd because having sex with a minor in the US is Rape.
“Poetry is what happens when nothing else can.”― Charles Bukowski

Offline 510bhan

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Re: He Won’t Reverse the Decision
« Reply #54 on: January 09, 2014, 05:38:48 PM »
Yep -- weird world we live in. ::)

Offline Neghe

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Re: He Won’t Reverse the Decision
« Reply #55 on: January 09, 2014, 06:06:33 PM »
I wonder what Dr. Robert Hare thinks about that.
(a Canadian/British forensic psychologist who invented the psychopath check-list)
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 06:08:34 PM by Neghe »
“Poetry is what happens when nothing else can.”― Charles Bukowski

Offline Neghe

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“Poetry is what happens when nothing else can.”― Charles Bukowski

Offline 510bhan

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Re: He Won’t Reverse the Decision
« Reply #57 on: January 09, 2014, 07:36:51 PM »
Thanks for the link, Neghe -- have to admit I do like that they say there is a cluster of related symptoms -- got scared when I read some of the descriptions and recognised parts of myself. :o

Offline Neghe

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Re: He Won’t Reverse the Decision
« Reply #58 on: January 09, 2014, 08:44:37 PM »

Oh yeah. Like you are a psycho.  ::)
“Poetry is what happens when nothing else can.”― Charles Bukowski

Offline 510bhan

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Re: He Won’t Reverse the Decision
« Reply #59 on: January 09, 2014, 09:06:58 PM »
Okay so I'm only a wannabe, but if you had my kid brother, you might head that direction too! :o