Author Topic: I have a unique question.  (Read 6563 times)

Offline thatollie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1443
Re: I have a unique question.
« Reply #30 on: October 15, 2010, 03:00:19 PM »
I'm glad you're back. Regrettably, I cannot answer your question.
Never make a decision standing up.

Offline WoodridgeNZ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 687
Re: I have a unique question.
« Reply #31 on: October 15, 2010, 04:20:11 PM »
I agree with Lisa on this one. Thanks for raising the issue, though. Hope you're enjoying being back at MWC.

Patron

  • Guest
Re: I have a unique question.
« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2010, 12:27:10 AM »
Very interesting post, should I say....? Sorry but I would suggest you re-read.

thatollie; Glad to see your still around. I was just checking the other day to see if you were still here. That reminds me of something. I'll send a PM.


Sincerely;


Patron

Offline Don

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13320
  • Murder & mayhem for fun and profit.
Re: I have a unique question.
« Reply #33 on: October 16, 2010, 07:27:05 AM »
I've been avoiding this thread, but there are a couple of obvious points that ought to be thrown into the mix.

In a virtual environment, it's sometimes hard to wrap your head around the diversity a site like MWC offers. We have members as young as eleven and others who are self-identified as curmudgeonly. They hail from every corner of the planet and English isn't always their first language. It should surprise no one that the range of talent and ability is equally diverse.

Several have spoken of courtesy and yes, that is a requisite element on an opinion/information sharing site. Lisa has correctly pointed out that courtesy is a two-way street. But if courtesy is requisite, so too is honesty. If someone has violated a fundamental rule of the language, this has to be pointed out. Arguing with someone who has critiqued your work does nothing to improve your writing. Accept the advice or reject it but have the courtesy to say thank you.

Critiquing takes time and effort. Hell, just reading a piece takes time. Not every piece that gets posted is going to be reviewed. That's simply the dynamic of the site.

If I post a piece for review, I should be grateful for those who gave me the gift of their time to read it and especially grateful to those who made the effort to respond. Whether the responses were helpful or not is quite beside the point--a simple thank you is in order. Arguing with someone who has pointed out deficiencies in your work is the telltale sign of immaturity as a writer, chronological age notwithstanding.

Those who post their work for review should shoulder some of the responsibility for the critique process. Telling me what you need help with allows me to read with that purpose in mind. If I offer additional advice, that's a bonus. If you don't tell me what you are looking for, then everything is up for grabs and this is often where the critiquing process falls apart.

Some pieces need improvement in several areas. The reviewer will say, "I don't know where to begin," and they don't. They point out the need for improvements in spelling, sentence structure, grammar choices and show versus tell. Our budding author is overwhelmed and takes up embroidery. Reviewers should remember that while all their critiques were valid, no one can correct everything at once. In our rush to help, we sometimes forget that. Help the poster with one thing and let them improve that first.

Oh, yes, did I say welcome back?

Don -

 
I have a motto: when in doubt, go for the cheap laugh.

Tempered

  • Guest
Re: I have a unique question.
« Reply #34 on: October 16, 2010, 07:40:57 AM »
Ah critiquing. How to give one, how to take one.

Excellent post btw Don.

I will add one thing and that is that I'm a firm believer that the novel you are writing should not go into a forum. I know that sounds weird, but for me, a novel written by you, should be written only by you from the lessons you've learnt from pieces written to teach you. What I mean is to do exercises like those done in school, learn from them and then apply it to you manuscript, this way, every word, every phrase is in your voice and not in a combination of others.

Of course after you have reached the level of being secure with your writing, when you are a writer then this could change. But while still in the process of becoming that writer you wish to be, it is just easier to let go of words that don't have that 'manuscript I bled for' attachment.

anyway best writing to you all.

My thoughts are just my thoughts and by no means make them the truth or the only way. If you find something that works for you, then use it.


Tempered

Offline thatollie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1443
Re: I have a unique question.
« Reply #35 on: October 16, 2010, 09:07:46 PM »
Very interesting post, should I say....? Sorry but I would suggest you re-read.

thatollie; Glad to see your still around. I was just checking the other day to see if you were still here. That reminds me of something. I'll send a PM.


Sincerely;


Patron
Please do, playing PM tag may keep you here a while.
Never make a decision standing up.

Offline ma100

  • Esteemed Contributor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 30526
  • I don't need kinky boots, nothing will beat me.
Re: I have a unique question.
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2010, 04:16:40 AM »
Hi Patron, welcome back.

I pretty much agree with Don and I would just like to show things from the other side of the coin. Reviewers need as much encouragement as newbies. Some are terrified they have given the wrong advice. I for one am and if I'm not sure, I pm whoever I think can check me. Unlike a lot, I don't care if I look a fool, I wore a dunces hat for a year before I started to get some of the knowledge in my head.

Some newbies do come on and think they have the next 'Stephen King' cos their family and friends have said it's good. It's a shock to their system to find out it's not the next best seller. I've been there mate so has the best part of the members on this site. ;)

Crits do take a long time to do and also they SHOULD be acknowledged whether agreed with or not. There is no reason for anyone to be cruel, but we owe it to all our members to be honest or we are doing the poster no favours. We can encourage and I feel most of our members do. Sometimes we have the odd person who jack boots in, but on the whole this is a very helpful site.

This subject came up last year and it will show you how the critters at that time were feeling.

http://www.mywriterscircle.com/index.php?topic=22922.0


Patron

  • Guest
Re: I have a unique question.
« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2010, 02:01:13 AM »
ma100

Thank you very much for the welcome back.

I was letting this post go because it was clearly heading a different direction. Thank you very much, whole heartedly for your post. Everything you said is right on the money.

I completely agree that we need to critique each piece with our best effort; I don' think anyone deserves a break or special treatment. I never indented that. I think some took this a bit too personal. That's not the point however and is, un-important.

This is the point. (As you have already said.) I absolutely think that we all need to critique as best we can, however can't we just show a little common courtesy? Whether it is right or wrong, agreed or not, common courtesy in our responses and posts is not only necessary but for my opinion, mandatory.

Iíve re-written this twice. Ma100 youíve got me thinking here. Thank you for that. This for me is all about our responses to new person posts. Iíve been gone awhile I know; I return and read some ďnewbie type posts and Iím dismayed. Iíve been around a while some longer than me; I was thoroughly disappointed to read reply type posts that, lacked merit, lacked integrity and most of all simply lacked respect. I realize I was away, but and I miss some of those who arenít here anymore, but I honestly felt like Pat was among us again. Heavens no!

I am condensing but, Iíve seen posts on this thread that were thought out and well written. Iíve seen others that were deplorable. I believe that we owe it to ourselves, call it pride, call it responsibility, call it anything that you want; I believe we need to simply respond with a little respect. New people enter all the time. Maybe their grammar is bad, maybe their spelling, and many times I see their format is wrong: I ask you, who cares? These people might be looking for someone to guide, they might simply be looking to get their feelings out or they might be testing the waters: Who knows? As Iíve read; we wonít read them because their spelling stinks; or how about, writers need to have a thick skin? I gotta tell you, writers develop this thick skin but not here on the MWC. How about those that have said that nobody theyíve seen writes with any disrespectÖ. How about saying that I wonít respond anymore? Please people think about your responses.

Don86usa, you were right in many ways. Thank you. LRSudaÖ.weíll I just canít possibly respond to your threadÖ..you missed the boat, Iím sorry to say and Iím thrilled it was your last thread.

I can go on. Many have offered some sound and positive advice.

I want everyone to know that I encourage and appreciate each and every new person that joins this forum; and I hope that they will get the best out of it. By the way, one more: Nobody here is an editor looking to slim the pile and find the worst, post full of mistakes. Help these new people for crying out loud. Everyone wants to be heard. Maybe it isnít what we like or agree with but we have the responsibility to help the best we can; period.

Last point I help out in a volunteer group for dyslexic people looking to write and or work through their dyslexia. Iíve seen some great ideas written from these people and I couldnít imagine tearing into them because they misspelled or grammatically were wrong or their format was atrocious.

Think about it; what do you know about these new people that submit? Maybe they donít have a spell check; maybe they donít have the education; maybe they know a little English; or just maybe somebody needs to feel a part of something and wants to share their writing. I donít think a thick skin is needed, is it?



Sincerely;

Patron

twisted wheel

  • Guest
Re: I have a unique question.
« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2010, 02:23:52 AM »
hi patron,

i'm glad to see you back too. i'm one of those who you are pointing the finger at for sure. i've always tried to do all that ma and don have said in their posts. BUT it gets annoying when lots of newbies join MWC and post their work in the script section never to return. my time is limited and reviewing a script (which i enjoy) takes a long time to do properly. so when i have done this and get no response from the person(s) time and again, i just think 'sod it, i won't bother anymore. check through all the posts to see if that is correct. but now i just stay away from the section because i don't want my time wasted anymore. i do agree with a lot of what you say though but i deserve the same respect. reviewing takes a hell of a longer time than posting!

daryl

Patron

  • Guest
Re: I have a unique question.
« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2010, 02:51:28 AM »
Hello midnight candle;

Great to see you again!

No, I wasn't picking on you and I'm not picking on anybody! I promise. I agree your time is valuable; My time is too. On the same token when I joined this web site I felt this. (What I've been talking about.) You may have felt it or not. You've been around. I see many great things happening here. Their is so much talent here; Country GaL, Gyppo and many others, (please don't feel left out anyone, because their are far to many to name here) but as I said, I came back, read  some discouraging posts and it was like Pat was back.

I understand time constraints; I was gone for awhile. I'm not asking anyone to agree with me here; but is this what we do? Time forces us to offer a post that speaks negative and discourteous or possibly disruptive. We were all new members once.

Just my thoughts.

Great to see you again midnightcandle and thanks for responding. Look forward to seeing you around the boards.

Sincerely;


Patron

twisted wheel

  • Guest
Re: I have a unique question.
« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2010, 04:34:45 AM »
thanks patron.

Offline The Dude Abides

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 362
  • terrancebramblett.wordpress.com
Re: I have a unique question.
« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2010, 09:41:05 AM »
Yeah, this is my last visit to this thread also. It is starting to turn inward on itself. But first, Patron, in your last post, you say this:
Quote
Think about it; what do you know about these new people that submit? Maybe they donít have a spell check; maybe they donít have the education; maybe they know a little English; or just maybe somebody needs to feel a part of something and wants to share their writing.
There is a clear implication in your posts that the reviewer should go easy on mechanical errors, maybe even not mention them, so the original author will not be discouraged. When a post is made with many SPaG problems, there can only be a few reasons.
1. The person does not know the proper usage or word.
2. They know what is correct, but made a lot of typos and did not proofread afterward.
3. They do not care if there are mistakes, that just want to get their deathless prose out for (only) favorable reviews.
4. English is not their primary language, or they are just learning the rules.

I cannot see any of those cases except 3 where the author would not fervently wish to know of their errors, so they do not continue to make them. But, as always, this is just my opinion.
"Little red wagon
Little red bike
I ainít no monkey but I know what I like"
                 Buckets of Rain, Bob Dylan