Author Topic: My first attempt at modern verse  (Read 14574 times)

Offline eric

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Re: My first attempt at modern verse
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2009, 09:41:42 PM »
that is exactly right, herron.  i may not like some of your attitudes or opinions, but that doesn't mean i won't share my hot chocolate with you (or even more so, hugh's jameson's with him!).  this is, after all, just a writing forum.

similarly, those who take themselves too seriously are very good resources and normally very good people.  should be treated with respect and not with what is so often dished out by jealous newbies and others.  personal respect is a pretty good watchword, i'd say.

but you might also wish to consider whether it's you that is taking self too seriously here, at least in your written word.  you have no published poems, a few weeks of experience with it here, your efforts so far (if you'll pardon my saying so) not the pristine jewels one might expect from one of our more talented members, and you spend most of your time playing games.  but you insist on arguing that we're wrong.  (Hugh, who is likewise unpublished in the art, used to do that, he does not really any more.  others, all unpublished, do so from time to time.)  okay, that's your prerogative, but you almost always lose on the merits.  A small handful of the more serious poets here have over 150 yrs. of combined experience.  We don't care about academic honors really, but we have 1200 poems published, advanced degrees and certificates from numerous institutions in four or more countries, a national first place award in English language skills (America), a poem performed by a symphony orchestra (London), many highly comical poems, two of those muchly vaunted National Merit Scholarships, and other little goodies.  does it not occur to you that there is some other explanation for the serious imbalance in arguing position, that is, other than that you're very smart and/or clever and/or laid back (though you still seem to have an inordinate interest in material objects on wheels), and we're not?  Just musing, of course.  Here, have some more cocoa.

« Last Edit: December 07, 2009, 11:25:52 PM by eric »

Offline Mark H

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Re: My first attempt at modern verse
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2009, 04:21:36 AM »
herron,

For a writer you have an extremely poor understanding of language usage. Let me help with a quote from TheFreeDictionary:

Infuriating
Meaning: Adj. Extremely annoying or displeasing;
Example: "her infuriating indifference"
Synonyms: exasperating, maddening, vexing

So you may well find child abuse extremely annoying but I suspect most of us would choose a different adjective.

And just to be clear, I don't find Hugh's opinions infuriating. An opinion looks like this: I think swearing in poetry is a bad thing. But Hugh goes much further: he claims to know what's in the writers head and does so IMO in a priggish manner. He seemed bewildered as to why earlier comments of his were like putting a fox in the chicken run. I was simply trying to explain.

Mark
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Offline Hugh

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Re: My first attempt at modern verse
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2009, 06:13:25 AM »
The views expressed were an honest response to a specific question has your opinion of modern verse changed? and not a personal attack on any individual, but I see that this grumpy old gits comments still have the ability to infuriate. I can live with that.

I have the utmost respect for the knowledge and expertise in all aspects of poetry, both ancient and modern, of the likes of Eric, John Y, Amie and others. It was studying some Yamrus poems that led me to understand that they were not merely clever, pithy sentences split into lines and called poetry. The lines themselves, the order and arrangement of them, the stanza breaks, the white space, all sorts of things, contributed to the power of the words, and the message they conveyed.

I realised that I had been wrong to dismiss modern poetry as lightweight and contrived. I began to appreciate it, to such an extent that the challenge grew to see if I could do one myself.

I am gratified, and satisfied, that it was not slammed as total rubbish, but I think Ill go back to the more tranquil waters of the prose boards. I feel more at home there, and rarely get shot at.

Hugh

Offline Mark H

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Re: My first attempt at modern verse
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2009, 07:24:07 AM »
Surely you mean shot back at?

You seem happy to make sweeping statements (like the one I quoted) but don't like it if they are challenged. Why is that?
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Offline SilverLady

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Re: My first attempt at modern verse
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2009, 07:40:15 AM »
I liked it very much, however, Eric said:-

Quote
Modern poetry is strict, but it is only brutal for those who know nothing about it and think not only that they need know nothing about it to write it, but that they know more than the people who do know about it.

This is condescending bullshit, poetry is an art, and like art, beauty is only ever in the eye of the beholder, you either like it or you dont. 

(I have read beautifull poetry written by children who cannot spell correctly let alone understand the technicalities of poetry, modern or otherwise.)

Does Eric's statement imply ageism?, in that modern poetry can only be enjoyed by a person of a certain age and his education?

 :)

Offline Mark H

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Re: My first attempt at modern verse
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2009, 09:08:41 AM »
This is condescending bullshit, poetry is an art, and like art, beauty is only ever in the eye of the beholder, you either like it or you dont.

But Eric is talking about craft not art. He's saying (I think) don't assume there is no craft just because the writer eschews: form, rhyme, meter, and poetic sounding words.
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Offline Hugh

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Re: My first attempt at modern verse
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2009, 10:18:32 AM »
Thank you for your comment on my effort, SilverLady. As for the rest of your post, Im keeping out of it.

Hugh

Offline herron

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Re: My first attempt at modern verse
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2009, 10:43:56 AM »
that is exactly right, herron.  i may not like some of your attitudes or opinions, but that doesn't mean i won't share my hot chocolate with you (or even more so, hugh's jameson's with him!).  this is, after all, just a writing forum.

similarly, those who take themselves too seriously are very good resources and normally very good people.  should be treated with respect and not with what is so often dished out by jealous newbies and others.  personal respect is a pretty good watchword, i'd say.

but you might also wish to consider whether it's you that is taking self too seriously here, at least in your written word.  you have no published poems, a few weeks of experience with it here, your efforts so far (if you'll pardon my saying so) not the pristine jewels one might expect from one of our more talented members, and you spend most of your time playing games.  but you insist on arguing that we're wrong.  (Hugh, who is likewise unpublished in the art, used to do that, he does not really any more.  others, all unpublished, do so from time to time.)  okay, that's your prerogative, but you almost always lose on the merits.  A small handful of the more serious poets here have over 150 yrs. of combined experience.  We don't care about academic honors really, but we have 1200 poems published, advanced degrees and certificates from numerous institutions in four or more countries, a national first place award in English language skills (America), a poem performed by a symphony orchestra (London), many highly comical poems, two of those muchly vaunted National Merit Scholarships, and other little goodies.  does it not occur to you that there is some other explanation for the serious imbalance in arguing position, that is, other than that you're very smart and/or clever and/or laid back (though you still seem to have an inordinate interest in material objects on wheels), and we're not?  Just musing, of course.  Here, have some more cocoa.

Point taken, Eric.

I apologize for any slights. They really were unintended. I can get on a soapbox with the best of them sometimes, and Mark's comment was just the fuel I needed this time, I guess. After decades in a very cutthroat business climate, it will be an effort, but I will try to let my more humble side emerge.

However, just to correct something. I have published poetry, and short stories. But that was a long, long time ago, in publications that don't even exist any more. Most of my writing efforts, and I had a lot of them over my career, were business articles, and things that might best be described as creative non-fiction.

I enjoyed what SilverLady had to say. Her comment: ....I have read beautiful poetry written by children who cannot spell correctly let alone understand the technicalities of poetry, modern or otherwise.... was, all by itself, almost enough to bring a tear to my eye. Because what she was talking about was reading emotions from those children that had impact. Simple. Profound. Beautiful.

The cocoa sounds good. But Hugh's Jameson's sounds better. If it's all gone, I'll break out my own Glenlivet.  ;)
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Offline Hugh

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Re: My first attempt at modern verse
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2009, 11:14:00 AM »
Not my Jameson's, Herron, but Eric's. Irish is not bad, but you can't beat the stuff from the home of the water of life. For a blended whisky I like Grouse, but Glenlivet is a nice malt. My son-in-law, who's Welsh, recently was given a bottle of Welsh malt, from a new distillery. I took one sip and couldn't drink it. Maybe one day they'll get it right.

Slainte.

Offline eric

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Re: My first attempt at modern verse
« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2009, 11:46:14 AM »
Indeed that's right, Hugh, which means I now owe you two bottles of Jameson's (or your favorite Scotch), I think.  And you're on target, H., I likewise spent most of my writing life on creative nonfiction, in my case, law!  It gives one an unfortunate tendency to argue (do you recall the poem Father William by Edward Lear, I think?), but all is not lost if we can still discuss the virtues of the divine nectar afterward.

As to your other comments, your point is well made, though I think that is most commonly a highly romantic view, in other words not connected to reality.  But no denying those things can happen.

Cheers.

 

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Re: My first attempt at modern verse
« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2009, 12:57:03 PM »
This is condescending bullshit, poetry is an art, and like art, beauty is only ever in the eye of the beholder, you either like it or you dont.  

Silverlady, that's quite a mouthful for someone new to this forum.

Also, you're forgetting the most important part. Art is not just about beauty. There's more to it. Much more.

As my daughter's violin teacher used to say: Talent is 5 percent.

So you may be talented, and never - let me repeat that - never achieve anything if you are either too stubborn or too lazy to learn the craft. Five percent is not much. The other 95% is just plain hard work. Learn the skills you need to master so your talent can shine.

Otherwise, you'll never get past the condescending bullshit part.

Sounds harsh? Sorry, I happen to be in a bad mood.
 

Offline eric

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Re: My first attempt at modern verse
« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2009, 01:27:16 PM »
thank you Leah, you are right on target.

This is condescending bullshit

Thank you, whoever you are, for perfectly illustrating my point.

As to ageism, one of our strongest reviewers is 19.  Another is 18. We have two in our fifties, two in their forties, another about eighty. And many others of all ages in between.  

Do you object to education?  One of our strongest reviewers dropped out after high school and has spent his life writing poetry. He taught himself, essentially.  I don't notice that you have any poems to review, though.  Or are you arguing for your right to be ignorant and untutored?  You certainly have that right.  Enjoy.  
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 03:09:14 PM by eric »

Offline herron

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Re: My first attempt at modern verse
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2009, 03:52:11 PM »
Indeed that's right, Hugh, which means I now owe you two bottles of Jameson's (or your favorite Scotch), I think.  And you're on target, H., I likewise spent most of my writing life on creative nonfiction, in my case, law!  It gives one an unfortunate tendency to argue (do you recall the poem Father William by Edward Lear, I think?), but all is not lost if we can still discuss the virtues of the divine nectar afterward.

As to your other comments, your point is well made, though I think that is most commonly a highly romantic view, in other words not connected to reality.  But no denying those things can happen.

Cheers.

Eric --
I think the poem you mean is the one by Lewis Carroll (it will never be one of my favorites).  ::)
 
"You are old, father William," the young man said,
"And your hair has become very white;
And yet you incessantly stand on your head
Do you think, at your age, it is right?

"In my youth," father William replied to his son,
"I feared it might injure the brain;
But, now that I'm perfectly sure I have none,
Why, I do it again and again."

"You are old," said the youth, "as I mentioned before,
And you have grown most uncommonly fat;
Yet you turned a back-somersault in at the door
Pray what is the reason for that?"

"In my youth," said the sage, as he shook his grey locks,
"I kept all my limbs very supple
By the use of this ointment one shilling a box
Allow me to sell you a couple?"

"You are old," said the youth, "and your jaws are too weak
For anything tougher than suet;
Yet you finished the goose, with the bones and the beak
Pray, how did you manage to do it?"

"In my youth," said his fater, "I took to the law,
And argued each case with my wife;
And the muscular strength, which it gave to my jaw,
Has lasted the rest of my life."

"You are old," said the youth, "one would hardly suppose
That your eye was as steady as ever;
Yet you balanced an eel on the end of your nose
What made you so awfully clever?"

"I have answered three questions, and that is enough,"
Said his father. "Don't give yourself airs!
Do you think I can listen all day to such stuff?
Be off, or I'll kick you down stairs.
 

 
And the divine nectar I'm partial to is the single malt ... Glenlivet, Glenfiddich or Knockando.   ;)
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Offline eric

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Re: My first attempt at modern verse
« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2009, 06:43:33 PM »
Thank you Herron, most astute, and you are right of course.  The poem's amusing, not really great, but the lines about the law are just so true, chuckle chuckle.  I believe I've tried the first two of the single malts you mention, they are certainly wonderful, but don't know if I will ever get to the third.  Do you find it special?  Hugh?

Offline eric

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Re: My first attempt at modern verse
« Reply #44 on: December 08, 2009, 08:13:54 PM »
Mark, thank you for your support earlier, old spigot, but your online dictionary is wrong.  Furious does not mean annoying.  Furious means the quality of having fury, that is, being enraged, raging.  It's extreme anger, not mere irritation.  So Herron was right, you were raging at Hugh for opinions he expressed on the merits. Those were not personal attacks by him.  But your comment that Herron didn't understand English when he (correctly) analyzed said word -- that was a personal attack.  Now Herron is not always right, not even close to it, he was wrong right up there (pointing), but he's not illiterate any more than you or me. Perhaps more to the point, your ire at Hugh really wandered over the boundary, old boy.  If you truly can't tolerate his very presence, suggest you go off and stab chickens or shoot beefeaters or something when he posts in the poetry boards.  

You know I agree a lot more with you than either of these blokes. That is why I do not like it when you abuse people not yet proven to be right-wingers.  I may want to quote you someday.  Here, have some hot chocolate, new batch just made, no animals died in the making.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 08:42:49 PM by eric »