frustration (profanity)

[Victor]

elvis presley...

[eric]

I believe Hugh's argument is rather powerful and far more plausible than many similar ones.  -- Even though it is at root flawed, and ultimately incorrect, as well as a tad sanctimonious.  But it is a great thing to create works of beauty from the word, something Whitman knew how to  do far better than Victor.  Victor's poetry is  raw and gutteral more than gorgeous, but Whitman in his day was definitely called obscene and so on also.

I would recommend, Hugh, that you look to the original 1855 version of Leaves, which you do not have, for what I think is far more powerful and lovely verse ... the later edition you rely on may be more to your taste but it lacks much of the amazing beauty, in my humble opinion.

Of course it's  a little unfair to expect Victor to emulate Shakespeare or Whitman, both true geniuses in my book, before we allow that he's writing poetry ... there are many thousands, maybe millions of poets out there, and all kinds of poetry, good and bad.  His ditty clearly does meet my technical requirements for a poem, though ... perhaps the more informative argument is whether it is good or bad as a poem.  As we have already seen, it obviously amuses several people ... is that enough?  Well we can argue  about that, I think.

[emma112]

Well, I say it's a good poem.

[eric]

To review, the reason it's a poem is that it conveys an emotional response, a certain set of emotions, to the reader.  Now Hugh, with his classical education (which I seriously envy) and having grown up in a decidedly different era, might not be familiar with the factual background to what I just said.  It is just so common for modern men (or women) in moments of frustration to say "fuck-fuck-fuck-shit" as they engage in various sorts of body language.  Victor has taken that and arranged it spatially in stanzas, giving a humorous formalistic twist to it that tickles my funny bone endlessly and comments on modern society at the same time.  That, to my mind, is a poem, and a good one.

If we take Hugh's word for it that fuck has been part of the formal language since 1965 (that's nearly half a century, and actually the date would be much earlier in a more reasoned view), and if we accept that the word is no longer even obscene by formal standards in this context, then the bathroom wall argument tends to lose force.   But this is even more true when we consider the precedents to Victor's poem in modern and post-modern poetry, and their successors.  For just one example, Amin Baraka (LeRoy Jones) did a great deal to experiment with the music of the spoken word and the relationship between poetry and music as a way to  break out of barriers that had grown up over the years.  His use of fuck and similar words was groundbreaking and often beautiful.

Probably since Ginsburg, the idea of writing epic all-encompassing poems to describe everything about your life, down to your fingernails, is not in vogue any more.  Ginsburg did it so well he more or less shut the door on that.  Ferlinghetti still does it, we see that in Charles Olsen's outlaw poems a bit, but otherwise it is not the done thing.  Today the overriding goal is to express the blood and bones of a discrete thing in the here and now.  And that's what Victor has done here, with playful and interesting effect.

So yes, I agree with Emma that this is a good poem, though it does not look like Shakespeare or like Walt. 

[emma112]

Very well said, Eric. 

[Hugh]

fuck it
i’m out of here
before the young ones
find more colourful ways
to call me
a grumpy old git

and more ladies swoon
from eric’s
erudition

[emma112]

Oh Hugh, I don't think you're a grumpy old git! You're perfectly entitled to your opinion.

A few months ago, I wouldn't have said that this was a poem. That's because I had absolutely no poetic experience whatsoever. But I have learnt a lot of things about poetry recently, which has me thinking that this is definitely a poem and a good one at that. It's good because, as Eric and other members have said, it brings out a reaction in me. It made me laugh and smile. Which is a good thing. Yes, it may be an unusual poem, seeing as it only consists of four words that are four letters long. But it's still a poem.

However, if some people like yourself, Hugh, think it isn't a poem, then that's fine. It's your opinion. So, we don't think you're grumpy because of that. And we're not against you because of that. We are all just expressing our opinions.

[eric]

fuck it
i’m out of here
before the young ones
find more colourful ways
to call me
a grumpy old git

you're a funny man, sir.  Godspeed.

oh, i ought to say, you know you are better read than me in several respects.  i just have a bigger mouth.

[gibberatu]

I saw the poem when there were only two posts about it. I thought 'crap' then 'is it?' a couple of seconds later, and decided I'd better let it stew in the back of my brain for a few days. Now I think it's really good, even though I'm a bit old and like 'The Charge of the Light Brigade' and John Betjeman.

I've just reviewed a long poem which alludes to Winston Churchill, and I can't help saying that never blah blah has so much been said blah blah on so little. 'So little' only because it's short. The poem doesn't say essayloads but says plenty for it's length.

I haven't read the whole thread, I hope that's not a hang, draw & quarter offence (probably what I'll get for mentioning old style poets).

[JoD]

eric wrote...

a debate about what is a poem is basically boring and repetitive.

and then we proceeded to have exactly that debate, and it went on for days.

vienna wrote...

Also what exactly is poetry? Poetry is different things to different people.Wordsworth defined poetry as "the spontaneous overflow of powerful feelings;" Emily Dickinson said, "If I read a book and it makes my body so cold no fire ever can warm me, I know that is poetry;" and Dylan Thomas defined poetry this way: "Poetry is what makes me laugh or cry or yawn, what makes my toenails twinkle, what makes me want to do this or that or nothing."

and me, i'm now on a mission to find more such quotes, including one that would ring true for me, as those above don't.

so if one of the things a poem should do is leave us something other than indifferent...which i'm POSITIVE would be part of his definition of poetry, victor did good, and thanks for it!

[twisted wheel]

this poem has stuck with me ever since i read it. i thought it was shit to be honest but it's grown on me a lot. dammit - i love it. very powerful.

[Victor]

thanks for the comments emma, Gib,Jo and MC

and ...Hugh.

[Victor]

oops...saw i missed eric...

thanks dude.