Author Topic: frustration (profanity)  (Read 12074 times)

twisted wheel

  • Guest
Re: frustration (profanity)
« Reply #60 on: August 27, 2009, 04:16:10 AM »
Yes

     Yes

           Yes

                  Cigarette
i don't know if this is poetry or not but it did evoke an emotional response. ;D

Offline Victor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1341
Re: frustration (profanity)
« Reply #61 on: August 27, 2009, 04:44:55 AM »
Quote
Oh come come victor   


I can, can...but I dont wanna make this thread sticky. ;D
And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. -ECCLESIASTES 1:17

Offline Biola

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1770
  • Creation swings on the axis of LOVE
Re: frustration (profanity)
« Reply #62 on: August 27, 2009, 05:04:26 AM »
Hi Hugh,
Di not know you had transferred the chat room here. I could barely hear my myself breathe! All my favourite people like showing their friendlies with a punch or two. I think eric had the last round and Jo is too lovely to box your ears. All the conciliatory bits did not help
yawn
    yawn
       burp
..............ho! sleep
biola
we learn every day if we want. check my blog http://biola-ephesus-ephesus.blogspot.com, Ephesus@Wordpress.com
buy my books, BLOOD CONTRACT,NUMEN YEYE at amazon.com

Offline eric

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10576
Re: frustration (profanity)
« Reply #63 on: August 27, 2009, 10:30:58 AM »
vienna, you're a funny, funny man.  funny i should say that ...

Well said, biola dear,  and I apologize to YOU (ONLY YOU, HEH) for getting a bit rasty.  But the point to my rather barbed exchanges with Hugh and Patti was not who was better educated, and thus more able to pontificate on the unworthiness of Victor's efforts at a so-called "poem."  (Patti deemed Freshman and Sophomore  English sufficient to do that.)  It was about credentials and superiority in general being foolish and ridiculous on the poetry boards.  While I have many times Patti's academic creds in English, Yamrus is a college dropout (or he never went there at all, I forget which).  He knows more about poetry than Patti will ever learn.  Victor is 19 or thereabouts and (guess what) knows less about  the old poets than Patti does.  But he knows vastly more about modern poetry and what came after it.  And (leaving his vomitous garbage aside) he is very good at what he does.  He actually has the courage to write poems.

My point was, if you don't like a poem, explain why in the context of the poem.  Don't attack the poet or other reviewers, don't use vague sarcasm that ultimately does not mean anything.  We need to  focus on the real words involved, know why we say things.  If we do that, there won't be mudslinging and name calling.  

It isn't about winning or losing.  There should be no winners or losers here.  It is about reasonably good poetry, our common cause.

What really yanks my chain is when someone with a smattering of background (or quite often, none at all), but often with academic pretensions, dismisses the work of a hand-working poet as not a poem at all, just because they don't like it.  It does not sound like what they imagined the feathery Shakespeare or Tennyson to be that they think they grew up with, therefore it must not be worthy of being a poem at all.  

That same sanctimonious, self-righteous attitude led many to denounce Whitman's 1855 Leaves of Grass as "not a poem" when it appeared.  Emerson said this was the greatest American poem to have ever appeared.  I agree, except that I would say it never has been exceeded since then.  In any case, it is a classic.  Surely, if Hugh or Patti had been around in 1855, they would have deemed it a non-poem with the  rest.

My feeling is that we should avoid such knee-jerk judgments on the boards.  At least until our studies are complete.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2009, 10:50:07 AM by eric »

Offline Vienna

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7402
Re: frustration (profanity)
« Reply #64 on: August 27, 2009, 11:05:13 AM »


eric, you are a gent.
Just a well-read punk peasant

Going to church makes you a christian as much as standing in a garage makes you a car!

Offline JoD

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 391
    • Anything Worth Doing: A true story of adventure, friendship and tragedy on the last of the West's great rivers: available in June.
Re: frustration (profanity)
« Reply #65 on: August 27, 2009, 11:11:18 AM »
<goes to her favorite dictionary to look up the word 'rasty'>
The last of the West's great wild rivers. A handmade dory. And two men, determined to live their dreams -- at any cost. ANYTHING WORTH DOING. http://www.jodeurbrouck.com/

Offline eric

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10576
Re: frustration (profanity)
« Reply #66 on: August 27, 2009, 01:34:34 PM »
eric's online dictionary defines it as "60's slang for 'out of hand or reckless;' derived from rasta + nasty ... common in smoke-laden environments, at night, out of sight."

Offline Biola

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1770
  • Creation swings on the axis of LOVE
Re: frustration (profanity)
« Reply #67 on: August 28, 2009, 02:17:32 AM »
Hi Eric,
You really are a gentleman, reminds me of old English, lace and lavendar! Seriously though I sincerely think you are right, I used to feel that poetry is looking for the shortest possible way to express an emotion, or view. Hugh's poem was very frustrated. which was the point really, Imagine wanting to say something and the words won't come. He controlled himself enough to write his expression down. I am reassured that we would get honest, polite review of our poems which will help us to grow. I think you did right pulling their ears. Like Jo, I would suggest you publish your own dictionary so we could learn. Rasty indeed.
we learn every day if we want. check my blog http://biola-ephesus-ephesus.blogspot.com, Ephesus@Wordpress.com
buy my books, BLOOD CONTRACT,NUMEN YEYE at amazon.com

Offline Hugh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1693
Re: frustration (profanity)
« Reply #68 on: August 28, 2009, 08:14:14 AM »
vienna, you're a funny, funny man.  funny i should say that ...

Well said, biola dear,  and I apologize to YOU (ONLY YOU, HEH) for getting a bit rasty.  But the point to my rather barbed exchanges with Hugh and Patti was not who was better educated, and thus more able to pontificate on the unworthiness of Victor's efforts at a so-called "poem."  (Patti deemed Freshman and Sophomore  English sufficient to do that.)  It was about credentials and superiority in general being foolish and ridiculous on the poetry boards.  While I have many times Patti's academic creds in English, Yamrus is a college dropout (or he never went there at all, I forget which).  He knows more about poetry than Patti will ever learn.  Victor is 19 or thereabouts and (guess what) knows less about  the old poets than Patti does.  But he knows vastly more about modern poetry and what came after it.  And (leaving his vomitous garbage aside) he is very good at what he does.  He actually has the courage to write poems.

My point was, if you don't like a poem, explain why in the context of the poem.  Don't attack the poet or other reviewers, don't use vague sarcasm that ultimately does not mean anything.  We need to  focus on the real words involved, know why we say things.  If we do that, there won't be mudslinging and name calling.  

It isn't about winning or losing.  There should be no winners or losers here.  It is about reasonably good poetry, our common cause.

What really yanks my chain is when someone with a smattering of background (or quite often, none at all), but often with academic pretensions, dismisses the work of a hand-working poet as not a poem at all, just because they don't like it.  It does not sound like what they imagined the feathery Shakespeare or Tennyson to be that they think they grew up with, therefore it must not be worthy of being a poem at all.  

That same sanctimonious, self-righteous attitude led many to denounce Whitman's 1855 Leaves of Grass as "not a poem" when it appeared.  Emerson said this was the greatest American poem to have ever appeared.  I agree, except that I would say it never has been exceeded since then.  In any case, it is a classic.  Surely, if Hugh or Patti had been around in 1855, they would have deemed it a non-poem with the  rest.

My feeling is that we should avoid such knee-jerk judgments on the boards.  At least until our studies are complete.

Eric my friend, with your superior academic qualifications you will of course be familiar with Shakespeare’s warning:

“Do not presume too much upon my love;
I may do that I shall be sorry for.”

Obviously I can’t speak for Patti, but I have compared two pieces of writing.

Come, said my soul,
Such verses for my Body let us write, (for we are one,)
That should I after return,
Or, long, long hence, in other spheres,
There to some group of mates the chants resuming,
(Tallying Earth's soil, trees, winds, tumultuous waves,)
Ever with pleas'd smile I may keep on,
Ever and ever yet the verses owning--as, first, I here and now
Signing for Soul and Body, set to them my name,

                                                                            Walt Whitman (Leaves of Grass)

Fuck
Fuck
Fuck                                                     
Shit
       

For me, one of those is poetry, and the other profanity merely for the sake of it. No cigar for guessing which is which.

Hugh

Offline Vienna

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7402
Re: frustration (profanity)
« Reply #69 on: August 28, 2009, 08:25:33 AM »


Hugh, is it profanity for the sake of it? hmmm perhaps, perhaps not. Also what exactly is poetry? Poetry is different things to different people.Wordsworth defined poetry as "the spontaneous overflow of powerful feelings;" Emily Dickinson said, "If I read a book and it makes my body so cold no fire ever can warm me, I know that is poetry;" and Dylan Thomas defined poetry this way: "Poetry is what makes me laugh or cry or yawn, what makes my toenails twinkle, what makes me want to do this or that or nothing."

isnt "Fuck" etc a spontaneous overflow of powerful feelings?

Just a well-read punk peasant

Going to church makes you a christian as much as standing in a garage makes you a car!

Offline Hugh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1693
Re: frustration (profanity)
« Reply #70 on: August 28, 2009, 09:32:18 AM »
Quote from: vienna link=topic=22802.msg364486#msg364486 date=1251462333
isnt "Fuck" etc a spontaneous overflow of powerful feelings?
[/quote

Maybe, but in my opinion it has become so over-used that it's ceased to have any power other than to punctuate the speech of certain kinds of people. The High Street now sounds like an army barrack room used to, and I happen not to like it. Is that a crime?

Offline Hugh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1693
Re: frustration (profanity)
« Reply #71 on: August 28, 2009, 09:38:03 AM »
Something went wrong there. The quote and my bit ended up in the wrong boxes.

Offline Mark H

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19722
  • Middleclass Machismo now available.
Re: frustration (profanity)
« Reply #72 on: August 28, 2009, 10:04:31 AM »
Hugh

You can take the moral high ground if you wish, but eventually the fucking tide will rise and wash you away. It's as inevitable as the fact that one day Victor will become a grumpy old git and start complaining about the disgusting way that youngsters [insert own imagery here] in the street.

Mark
Buy Bristle Side Down, The Man Who Wore Brown Shoes and Middleclass Machismo here:
http://www.lulu.com/shop/search.ep?contributorId=570142

If poetry is not your thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PueM04F0Qz8 or: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0Zm8cj9MGg

Offline Victor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1341
Re: frustration (profanity)
« Reply #73 on: August 28, 2009, 10:11:54 AM »
interesting...

BTW is lord worm a better singer than elvis ? ...off-topic maybe...just curious  ;D
And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. -ECCLESIASTES 1:17

Offline Mark H

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19722
  • Middleclass Machismo now available.
Re: frustration (profanity)
« Reply #74 on: August 28, 2009, 10:13:42 AM »
Elvis Costello?
Buy Bristle Side Down, The Man Who Wore Brown Shoes and Middleclass Machismo here:
http://www.lulu.com/shop/search.ep?contributorId=570142

If poetry is not your thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PueM04F0Qz8 or: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0Zm8cj9MGg