Author Topic: So Barack Obama clinched it...  (Read 34999 times)

Offline DC

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Re: So Barack Obama clinched it...
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2008, 06:07:52 PM »
There was a sketch on 'Spitting Image' years ago where they were having a hallowe'en fancy dress do at the White House, and Ronald Reagan turned up as himself. When questioned about his lack of 'scary' fancy dress, he replied:

"I'm a seventy-odd year old former B-rate film actor with my finger on the Nuclear button; I can't think of anything scarier than that!"

He obviously didn't suspect a future with GW...

As for Obama, I didn't know about his having refused donations. Good on him for that, he's just gone up in my estimation. But as Ellie says, if he gets in, I fear for him, there are too many 'nutters' out there. I haven't forgotten JFK.

Just one point on the comment about America 'not being there' for us when we fought the Nazis alone.

Not quite true, they did supply us with arms and provisions; ask any of the few remaining who survived the Atlantic Convoys. Roosevelt did want to help, but was prevented from doing so more overtly by the isolationist and 'neutrality' policies then in force in the White House. And American warships were active (as in actually fighting) on anti-submarine patrols in the Atlantic before Pearl Harbour.

Dave.
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midnightcandle

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Re: So Barack Obama clinched it...
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2008, 06:15:00 PM »
Quote
Not quite true, they did supply us with arms and provisions; ask any of the few remaining who survived the Atlantic Convoys. Roosevelt did want to help, but was prevented from doing so more overtly by the isolationist and 'neutrality' policies then in force in the White House. And American warships were active (as in actually fighting) on anti-submarine patrols in the Atlantic before Pearl Harbour.

Dave.
True and maybe for another thread. My point still stands Britain stands alone ehen we need help. Britain is GWB puppet. And Ellie is right - Someone should kick Mugabe's arse.

I don't know too much about Obama because I just haven't cared this time around. How can anyone care about a country's voting system when it managed to elect GWB - TWICE!!!

All the best to whoever wins. I can't see the attraction in the 21st century in wanting that job. They got a lot of clearing up to do :(

Offline nightowl

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Re: So Barack Obama clinched it...
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2008, 08:51:45 PM »
MIdnightcandle,

I don't believe you understand what was going on in the US while your country battled Hitler without our help.  FDR completely understood your situation and he knew we had to get in there and join the fight.  Trouble was, the average voter in this country was dead-set against involvement and FDR was facing an election.  England should thank its lucky stars FDR was won the election and pulled the US kicking and screaming into the fray.  Even then had it not been for US actions that provoked Japan and led to the bombing of Pearl Harbor, the general population would never have understood the true danger facing the world. 

I personally apologize for the fact that we were slow, but I take offense that so many died and their sacrifices are not appreciated.

As for Obama, he has neither the experience or the judgment for the job.  However, there were no good choices when the field narrowed to McCain, Clinton and Obama.  At this point it probably doesn't matter.  This country has reached a point of no return.  We are in big trouble.  Britian, in my opinion, is in the same sinking boat. 
As writers, we are all on the same path--some of us taking first steps, others well along on the road.  Those who write because they must are obliged to step over those who abandon their dreams because the way is rocky and steep.

Offline Paw

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Re: So Barack Obama clinched it...
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2008, 10:05:11 PM »
No candidate is perfect.  Some are far from perfect.  (Insert pictures of Bush and Nixon here) However, most are not as bad as they are painted in th press and in the other party's ads.  Campaigning in the US out of control, too nasty and devoid of competent media fact checking.  Even if the competition were between Mother Theresa and Ghandi, by November there would be ads and news reports making them look like crooks. 

I'm a cynic about the details of this process but an optimist about the results.

In spite of the smoke and noise, both major US parties somehow picked their best available candidate.   (I started out last December as a Hillary C. supporter.)  Both Obama and McCane have more integrity, are better listeners, and can work across party better lines than their competition, yet they differ significantly on important issues and therefore offer a real choice.  Americans are fotunate this year to finally be able to pick between two such people.



midnightcandle

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Re: So Barack Obama clinched it...
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2008, 12:17:39 AM »
Morning nightowl. Thanks for your comments. I must sound angry but I'm not. I do appreeciate that the USA finally joined the fight all those years ago and did sacrifice themselves. The war would never been won without it.

May the best man win ;D

Offline simonjjames

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Re: So Barack Obama clinched it...
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2008, 03:50:48 AM »
Personally, I think America is a Glorious country full of breathtaking landscapes, world changing ideas and some of the most inspirational people in history. Some of my most personally poignant and uplifting moments have been in America, standing on Ellis Island, standing on top of the Empire State building after a particularity very shitty time etc. I have all the time in the world for American people, they are our brothers and sister in many more ways than simple ancestry can explain.

However, the heroic and stoic individuals of America aside we cannot brush over our the rampant Governmental / Corporate looting that has gone on on the back of conflicts and wars. The initial Gulf War and the current war is about Oil, I'm sure we all agree, the subsequent slaughter of American, British and allied troops due to a lack of Plan B is nothing short of a war crime that Blair, Bush, Cheney, etc should be indicted for. Zimbabwe has been mentioned and Darfur also, why have we, and I mean America and the UK, not gone in and sorted out the genocidal actions of the administrations and their militia. Why? Because they no longer have anything to offer (since the Brits looted them both in the early 1900s) and they will not destabilise the World order.

I am saddened by Governments that do not represent the conscience of their countries but are driven by their own agendas of posturing, power and greed. I do not believe that Bush is representative of the American people and Brown certainly isn't, I can only hope that Obama's talk of change rings true with the populace and they can look past his inexperience and in some cases where their prejudice still guides them, the colour of his skin.

We are all world citizens and America is still the most powerful nation on Earth so it is all our business who gets in as America's President will dictate the tone of the next decade. Bush is already hamstrung by congress and seems to be slipping aggressively into dementia (God Speed on that one) so if McCain gets in, I think he will carry on the interventionist foreign policy and send MORE troops to Iraq and Afghanistan condemning the US to 4 more years of lost sons and daughters.

I truly think that Obama is all our only hope. And I mean hope.

Offline jeff

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Re: So Barack Obama clinched it...
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2008, 06:19:04 AM »
Obama's first act on getting the nomination was to pledge unconditional support for Isreal. Sounds like business as usual.
.

Offline Amie

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Re: So Barack Obama clinched it...
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2008, 06:22:56 AM »
Politicians promise anything (although I appreciate that Obama has apparently given other signals which suggest integrity). Bush not only promised, but put in writing, his unconditional support for the recognition of the Armenian Genocide (for which the historical evidence is just as strong as for the Jewish Holocaust) - but once he was president and considered the political advantages in his war on terror to having Turkey as an ally, that promise was not only dropped, but he actively worked to overturn Congress' decision to acknowledge the genocide.
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Offline Wurdsmyth

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Re: So Barack Obama clinched it...
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2008, 08:36:55 AM »
I work for a political party (although I don't vote for them! - I'm a copywriter in a print department) and it's been fascinating for me to watch all the political shenanigans from America - especially having experience of the 'inside' of politics.

The problem that I can see is that, while ever politicians are courted so much for their celebrity instead of their ability, politics will always attract people who are more interested in the advancement of their own careers. I see it all the time; the people who genuinely work hard tend to be local councillors who have no ambitions outside of their own towns or villages - meanwhile, you can spot a 'career politician' a mile off, with their 'big' personalities and their penchant for photos of them outside the Houses of Parliament...

Unless we get away from the cult of celebrity in politics, I think there will always be a gap between what politicians promise and what they actually achieve.  :-[
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Offline nightowl

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Re: So Barack Obama clinched it...
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2008, 09:41:56 AM »
Thanks, Midnight.  All is forgiven.  I am sorry the US wasn't there to help sooner, but politics being politics what can I say?

Wyrdsmyth has laid it out accurately.  The world has changed radically and politicians are celebrities now who put their own personal ambition far ahead of the wishes of the voters.  Worse yet, they have the full support of the media.

Obama has likely won the nomination thanks to gullible young people with no sense of history, easily led by a silver tongued politician who he tells them he stands for change.  What the gullible fail to notice is that there is no plan for this miraculous change.  On one front, healthcare, he does seem to have a plan.  He tells us his plan is to make health care in the US "more affordable", thus all can have it.  Now there's a plan, albeit impossible. 

From where I sit here in the middle of America, what I hear is that nobody is happy with the choices this time around.  The same was true when I voted for Gore and then for Kerry.  Both were pitiful choices but Bush was no choice at all.

When Harry Truman left the White House more than a half century ago he took a cab to the train station and paid for his own ticket back to Missouri.  When offered money to speak after leaving the White House he refused saying that what the organization that wanted him to speak was trying to buy was not him, but the presidency, and the presidency wasn't for sale. 

I'm not sure who the last decent president was but I can tell you it has been a while. 
As writers, we are all on the same path--some of us taking first steps, others well along on the road.  Those who write because they must are obliged to step over those who abandon their dreams because the way is rocky and steep.

midnightcandle

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Re: So Barack Obama clinched it...
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2008, 10:41:28 AM »
Quote
On one front, healthcare, he does seem to have a plan.  He tells us his plan is to make health care in the US "more affordable", thus all can have it.  Now there's a plan, albeit impossible. 


People laughed at the NHS but we've enjoyed its benefits for 60 years.

I think what I hate most is the fact that british mp's are starting to use the same tactics as the US. I don't want to see slimy politicians, spin-doctoring, etc. I would respect any MP or senator who stood up and said 'this is a crock of shite and I'm gonig to change things'

But that's for an ideal world.

Offline Paw

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Re: So Barack Obama clinched it...
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2008, 11:11:03 AM »
The question isn't "where are the honest and competent politicians?"

The question is "how do we elect honest and  competent politicians and keep them honest after they're in office?"

The system too often filters out the best candidates because each honest statement alientates an interest group.  It filters out comperence because to many voters view the deep understanding demonstrated by nuance as "flip floping."   As long as voters reward spin and slogans and believe BS ads by special interests, poular soundbites will drive the selection process. 

The success of the Neocon/Religious right war on science, suported by right wing commentators, is the best example.  Last night, for example, Glenn Beck, a prominant conservative comentator, dismissed Obama's Tuesday speech as being great words but empty for including such ""nonsense" as referirng to rising seas.  His audience just accepts Beck's rejection of a proven fact.   (I could site similar examples of Keith Oberman, a liberal comentator, ignoring inconvenient truths.)

So how do we redesign the system to reward integrity?  We might start by figuring out how to get truth to the electorate so that they can recognize dishonesty.

Offline nightowl

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Re: So Barack Obama clinched it...
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2008, 11:27:24 AM »
Paw,

You are right on. 

Has anybody read Charlie Wilson's War?  The movie is good but it doesn't begin to tell the entire story.  Read this book and you will be completely and totally amazed at the power of certain elected individuals simply because they have managed to get on certain committees--those that really control what goes on in this country. 

Yes, I blame Bush for the Iraq war, but when you get right down to it, the President of the US isn't nearly so powerful as a few Congressmen. 

And our govenment isn't really "of the people and for the people" any longer.  Personally, I see no way it can ever change.  Those in power are too strong and the media watchdogs have sold their souls just like the politicans--journalists have abandoned their posts for the glitter of celebrity.
As writers, we are all on the same path--some of us taking first steps, others well along on the road.  Those who write because they must are obliged to step over those who abandon their dreams because the way is rocky and steep.

Offline Paw

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Re: So Barack Obama clinched it...
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2008, 11:30:22 AM »
Haven't read it yet.

Obama's anouncement that the DNC won't take special interest money and McCane's dismissal of several lobbyists from his campaign staff are important symbols, but substantively only token steps.

Offline bobby digital

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Re: So Barack Obama clinched it...
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2008, 04:11:27 PM »
Haven't read it yet.

Obama's anouncement that the DNC won't take special interest money and McCane's dismissal of several lobbyists from his campaign staff are important symbols, but substantively only token steps.


I disagree...

I've been following the race since Obama's win in Iowa and to date, he hasn't accepted any money from lobbyists or special interest groups. Doing so now would obliterate his integrity...

I watched a speech of his on CNN where he describes this elderly lady (I've forgotten her actual name but she was in the audience) and goes on to tell of the sacrifice she made by her losing two of three sons to 'the war on terror' and how poorly the government dealt with her after. And the policies that forced her out of her home and into poverty...

Yet she donated $1.34 to his campaign. And it's facts like that that have Republican party worried!

America is knee deep in a recession. And the Government/Bush have the nerve to blame it on the 0.01 pence rise in the price of rise and flour. Or China's emerging middle class??? When the fact is they have been spending '12 Billion USD A week' on The 'War to control Iraqi oil' 'War on Terror'

NOTE: 12 Billion USD is the is the figure quoted by both Congress and the Pentagon...

It is easy to sit back and say "I don't care blah blah blah" or "They are all the same etc etc etc" But the cold fact is this... If Mccain wins we're all in F*****! Britain is so closely intertwined with the states that a win for Mccain will be a disaster for us all... We wont just border on a recession we'll be in one.

Just google Bradford and Bingley/Northern Rock or better yet, look up G. Browns latest stealth tax or the 4-11% drop in the value of your home.

bobby
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