Author Topic: X2 Manifesto  (Read 15427 times)

Offline eric

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Re: X2 MANIFESTO
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2008, 09:53:16 PM »
Donette

I don't really know who you are either, but I can tell I like you too.  As they say on this side of the pond, you go too, girl.  That Marlboro will be fine, thanks!

Dom

I'm curious as to why your posts were removed.  Did something happen?

Cathers

None of my remarks were defamatory and none of them lacked sufficient research.  They were expressing my honest view of a facially flawed offer, as the others also did.  Your view that we were attacking the company as such just to attack it is groundless and silly.  Nothing in your remarks undermines my point of view, it just presents another opinion, which in my humble ken is mistaken.  As to the abusive language, apparently you don't have much experience with language like that directed at writers, because that's what it was.  I was opposing that on pinciple, because obviously they couldn't know to apply it to me and I could have cared less if they did.  That was the meaning of my (and everyone else's) cigarette jokes.  And your slam at my writing ability, as if there were some, is just plain stupid.  Oh, is stupid too harsh a word?  I meant gratuitous, pointless, and dumb.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2008, 11:20:51 AM by eric »

Offline pri2des

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Re: X2 MANIFESTO
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2008, 07:39:17 AM »
as someone said pay is jus as important as exposure - i will give it a try.

Offline Donnettetxgirl

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Re: X2 MANIFESTO
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2008, 09:31:22 AM »
Think of it this way: if they're not successful & professional enough to assure you a royalty, how successful & proffesional are they going to be at getting you exposure?

I once volunteered a short story to a cause that had given me much more than I could ever give them in return. I did it because I knew it was a worthy cause. But, beyond that I would never give away my hard-earned work. A writer puts too much blood & sweat into a novel to give it away to a publisher who doesn't even have a set royalty they can offer.

I would never recommend settling for something like this. It sounds more to me like this publishing company is going on a trial-run at the expense of the author. You really have no assurances. If it doesn't pan out (which seems very likely a senario), the author's book will probably be held up in this nightmare for God knows how long.

Donnette Smith
Author of Lady Gabriella
www.freewebs.com/romanceauthor
www.myspace.com/storycreater 

Offline Caffers

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Re: X2 MANIFESTO
« Reply #33 on: June 04, 2008, 05:31:16 AM »
Cathers

Nearly right; attention to detail isn't your strong point.

None of my remarks were defamatory and none of them lacked sufficient research.

They were defamtory in that they were negative without representing ther truth. You didn't do any research, because if you did you would have discovered the answer you seek. I simply asked and got the answer. You didn't. 

And your slam at my writing ability
Are you paranoid? You seem to think the whole world is criticising you, whilst nothing has actually been said about you, apart from your eagerness to attack something WITHOUT doing any research.

Offline Caffers

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Re: X2 MANIFESTO
« Reply #34 on: June 04, 2008, 05:33:17 AM »
Excuse me for saying, but this here is a usual song & dance. Seen it too many times. Publishing companies like this visiting writers forums, hoping to see how many fresh victims they can round up.

Interesting and bold. I like that. Doubtless you have done some research and asked the right questions of them, have you? Otherwise, of course, your statement is nothing but bitterness and libel.

What is it with the "writers" on here?

Offline Donnettetxgirl

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Re: X2 MANIFESTO
« Reply #35 on: June 04, 2008, 08:18:28 AM »
Actually it's called common sense. It would make sense that most publishing company that are doing well for themselves & their authors would not have to visit writers forums to advertise themselves. I'm not saying that it has never happened in all of history, but the chances are very unlikely. You see, most legit publishing companies are far too busy reading the hundreds of submissions that come in weekly from perspective authors. They are busy putting out books & promoting their authors. In fact, they usually get so many submissions that they don't have time, nor would they want to go looking for more.

And as a second note, I have done my research on what publishing companies do & do not do. That is why I would never trust this particular publishing company (personally).

As far as me being bitter. Far from it. Cautious, absolutely. Every writer should be when submitting to perspective agents & publishing companies. There are far too many sharks in the water, my friend. 

Bold, no. Like I said earlier: I tell it like I see it.

But, hey, it's your work. Do whatever you feel you have to do.

Donnette Smith
Author of Lady Gabriella
www.freewebs.com/romanceauthor
www.myspace.com/storycreater

Offline Caffers

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Re: X2 MANIFESTO
« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2008, 09:01:43 AM »
Actually it's called common sense. It would make sense that most publishing company that are doing well for themselves & their authors would not have to visit writers forums to advertise themselves. I'm not saying that it has never happened in all of history, but the chances are very unlikely. You see, most legit publishing companies are far too busy reading the hundreds of submissions that come in weekly from perspective authors. They are busy putting out books & promoting their authors. In fact, they usually get so many submissions that they don't have time, nor would they want to go looking for more.

And as a second note, I have done my research on what publishing companies do & do not do. That is why I would never trust this particular publishing company (personally).

As far as me being bitter. Far from it. Cautious, absolutely. Every writer should be when submitting to perspective agents & publishing companies. There are far too many sharks in the water, my friend. 

Bold, no. Like I said earlier: I tell it like I see it.

But, hey, it's your work. Do whatever you feel you have to do.

It's not "my work". When the hoo-haa started on here, I found the reactions of many quite funny. I contacted the people behind it and got a rather interesting insight into what they're doing. All I did was ask. Instead of asking, you and others just go with a gut reaction based on nothing other than your own uninformed opinion. As someone who gets paid to write, I find that laughable. That's all.

Everyone on here has an opinion, but to make statements of dubious legality rather than ask questions is blinkered. Funnily enough, this one thread has made me wonder if MWC is a worthwhile place to post, because so fart the views expressed seem rooted in nothing more than a desire to do down anyone and anything else.

SuzieHarris

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Re: X2 MANIFESTO
« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2008, 09:15:41 AM »
Caffers,

Quote
I contacted the people behind it and got a rather interesting insight into what they're doing. All I did was ask. Instead of asking, you and others just go with a gut reaction based on nothing other than your own uninformed opinion. As someone who gets paid to write, I find that laughable. That's all.

We are all entitled to our opinions, and that is exactly what these posts are, our opinions. We do ask questions, I for one have to do just that everyday. It's how I became a writer. However, gut instincts are something I developed after many years in the business. I trust them, because for me they work. Everyone else is free to act on their own. I too am paid to write. Its my full-time job.

Quote
Everyone on here has an opinion, but to make statements of dubious legality rather than ask questions is blinkered.

Exactly, everyone has a right to their opinion. I don't think anyone has made any dubious legal claims, after all we are writers not solicitors.

Quote
Funnily enough, this one thread has made me wonder if MWC is a worthwhile place to post, because so fart the views expressed seem rooted in nothing more than a desire to do down anyone and anything else.

Caffers, the whole world is made up of remarks that hurt or offend other people. It's part of life and one we all have to get used to. This thread has been a discussion, not always a healthy one, I'll concur, but a discussion nonetheless. I feel that you leaving MWC because of it is shortsighted. Most of the boards are positive, but we all have the odd rumble. that;s what happens when you get a room of several hundred creative people together, at times they will clash.

I hope you reconsider because you have some valuable points to put across, but, as someone with a daughter your age who is also prone to over reacting, I feel that your reaction to leave is a little exaggerated.

Suzie



Offline Donnettetxgirl

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Re: X2 MANIFESTO
« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2008, 11:11:02 AM »
Like Suzie said, there is alot to be said for a writers gut instict. If a writer wants to become involved with the publishing industry, they should pay close attention to it. When red flags are ignored, it often leaves to tragedy & great disappointment for the writer. And when you've been taken, you are left with a lot to overcome. Some writers never overcome the horror they are left to deal with after the fact. Some never find the courage or the faith in themselves to submit again. It's a terrible feeling of crushed faith, & no writer should have to go through that. But, they do everyday. That's is why it pays to be overly cautious.

Now I'm not saying that this publishing company is not legit. What I am saying is that the way they've presented themselves here makes me think they're very unproffesional, & probably don't know what they're doing. That is the opinion I drew from what they posted. To me it was an easy conclusion to draw. But, I am a published writer, & I've taken an avid interest in the market & the do's & don't of the publishing world. To me, researching these things took precendence. I think it's wise for every writer to be armed with information before they hit the mean streets of publishing.

And there is certainly nothing wrong with writers warning other writers when they feel that something just doesn't smell right.

Donnette Smith
Author of Lady Gabriella
www.freewebs.com/romanceauthor
www.myspace.com/storycreater   

Offline Caffers

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Re: X2 MANIFESTO
« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2008, 02:38:07 AM »
I hope you reconsider because you have some valuable points to put across, but, as someone with a daughter your age who is also prone to over reacting, I feel that your reaction to leave is a little exaggerated.

First off, I doubt you have a daughter my age, or you'd probably be dead right now!

Secondly, my reaction to leave is based upon MWC, in my opinion, not having much to offer me. This thread demonstrates much, in that it is one of the more active. Yes, I'm all for debate, and I appreciate that people are free to offer opinions, but I had expected those involved in publishing (as many of the vocal participants claim to be) to at least allow some of the golden rules of their trade to drift into their posts.

To me, as someone who writes approximately 60-80,000 published words each month, I am always damn sure that I do not write or publish - in any format - a statement that could be construed to defame another individual or company unless I am 100 per cent sure of what I am saying. If the statement is based upon an uninformed gut reaction, I make damn sure I phrase it in such a way that a lawyer can't tie me up with my own words. In the posts made here (including those removed), I'd say at least four people broke that rule.

The OP was straightforward, and very early on it was met with some sarcastic posts, which then developed into a tirade. At that time, I thought I had simply identified a few memebers here that were prone to winding up others. Every forum has them, so I wasn't surprised. The OP then replied with a strong, and I thought clear and concise, response that did not specifically insult or condemn or question anyone's ability. Yes, it was hard, but it dealt with a bit of the sniping. Whoever wrote it followed the basic rules so no one was singled out. Then everyone acted as if they were persoanlly attacked.

Another rule of writing is that you must be objective. You must be able to sit back, detach yourself from your work or the work of others, and assess what is being said. It's a basic skill taught to even the most junior writers. No one survives years in the trade without learning that. However, very few people in this thread actually did that. When I asked someone who complained about being insulted how this had happened because I couldn't see anything directed at them personally, they accussed me of belittling their ability as a writer! They didn't actually read what was being said, because they were only interested in spewing out what they thought they knew.

Then we come to research. I don't care what you write, you have to do some research. Inevitably you will need to, and as such a writer that doesn't do research is a failed writer. That's a fact, whether you like it or not. In this thread, a question was asked of the OP, and they responded. That response was then controted into something else, questioned and ridiculed. At that point, had it been my project, I would have simply handed the posts over to a lawyer. If those involved had been memebers of the public, I would have excused them their ignorance, but for published writers and high level people in the publishing world, they deserved to be sued for being so lax.

Because I was interested, not in participation but by the project itself, I contacted those concerned, and found them willing to talk and very helpful. I also found out that they won't be doing much the way traditional publishing does things. This is despite the team involved being made of a group from the traditional writing/publishing sector. Research isn't hard. It's easy; ask questions and get answers. If you want more detail, ask other questions. It's simple research basics. If you can't get in the front door, try the back, try the windows, you can only learn more, not less!

It is not a lawful defence to simply state: "It was my opinion". You are judged on what you have written, and as members of the profession (and by using that fact to underpin the validity of your comments), legally you have offered what is classed as professional advice. That means that if the statement is not correct and accurate, or could be misconstrued by a reader, you are 100 per cent liable. You'll all know this; it's basic publishing stuff.

The ability to write without libelling or defaming someone; the ability to assess what is being said, not what you think or want to be said; basic research to ensure you've found out as much as you possibly can beofre making a definitive statement - all of these simple rudimentary elements are missing. I don't want to get into a slanging match with anyone, but without these I struggle to see how you are the successes you say you are. It's either that, or that MWC is a place where you come to do everything badly. Whichever it is, I don't see how I could stay here without constently arguing. It's this X2 thing today, tomorrow another post will incur the collective wrath of the same people.

The irony is that all those who complained were not elligible to participate in the project for a simple reason. They clearly state it is for UNPUBLISHED writers, so why bother kicking the shit out of them? Okay, I agree with you that I wouldn't write without being paid, but that's because I can pick up a paying job if I have any free time. If not, I just do what I already get paid for. However, I do know several fiction writers that would jump at this without bothering about being paid. That's a fact. People who don't want to write articles or puffs, but want to write novels, have a different long-term attitude. No one considered that either.

Finally, Donnette, I liked your statement that you know this is wrong because real publishers don't do things like this. You may or may not have heard of Sniffin' Glue. It was a hand-written photocopied mess in the late 1970s. It spawned a host of replicas, affected mainstream publishing and created a UK media star of television and radio. Mind you, that's not how publishing works. In 1982, a major publisher launched a novel that went straight to the top of the best seller charts. They promoted it by identifying areas of "prospective readers" via ACORN research, and employed students to leaflet houses there with a series of simple leaflets bearing sublime messages. Then a few days before the launch, they used the same style and layout to put the books details on billboards in the relevant areas. Mind you, that's not how publishing works. One of the biggest books by one of the world's best known pulp authors will never earn a penny, despite having been in the best seller charts for over a decade. It was over-marketed because the publisher saw more value in getting one of its products into as many homes as possible rather than making a tidy profit. Mind you, that's not how publishing works. I could go on for days; it's one of my hobbies, understanding how people get results by doing things differently.

The reality is this; if publishing worked the way it used to work, you'd still be paying the church for indulgences and producing prayer books. Times change. I buy my shopping on line, I buy my books online, I order my holidays online, I organise myself online, if I needed a job I'd look online too. Soon I'll read my books and newspapaers online too, as will you. Many publishers already have fora and websites under different names looking for talent. They face increased competition from each other and from the rise in small press activities. That, plus the fact that piracy (which never really impacted on publishing) is now a serious problem, means that they are struggling in a world where more content is freely available to fewer readers. Publishing houses are not sweatshops bulging with MSSs where a different approach will merely be lost in the sea of chaos. If you don't try new things, you don't survive. That's the one thing I do know about publishing.

And so, in answer to your comment Suzie, I don't see reconsidering the value of being here an over-reaction. It's not like I've been here long or even settled in. I merely see it as a realisation that I might be better off not swimming against the tide here, but finding somewhere where the tide runs in what I consider to be the right direction.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2008, 02:50:04 AM by Caffers »

Offline eric

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Re: X2 MANIFESTO
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2008, 04:38:32 AM »
You're right, Caffers.  MWC has nothing to offer you.  Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

SuzieHarris

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Re: X2 MANIFESTO
« Reply #41 on: June 05, 2008, 04:52:14 AM »
Caffers

Quote
First off, I doubt you have a daughter my age, or you'd probably be dead right now!

For that I apologize. I thought I read that you were in your twenties in one of your posts. Looking back I can see I confused you with 'Scope'.

I can't argue with your feelings about MWC because you have to do what you think is right for you. However, I do feel that leaving over one post is a bit hasty. 

Suzie

« Last Edit: June 05, 2008, 04:53:52 AM by Suzie »

Offline Donnettetxgirl

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Re: X2 MANIFESTO
« Reply #42 on: June 05, 2008, 09:58:26 AM »
Caffers, people have differences of opinion. It doesn't matter what forum you go to, you're going to find it in abundance. Why are you letting this post upset you this much? Is it because people are expressing their opinions concerning this publishing company who posted here? If I've attacked you personally, please be so kind as to point it out to me.

As a writer I have every right in the world to express my own opinion & openly say that I disagree with the way they have stated themselved that they do business. We are writers here, with our own views, experiences & advice. We share them often. It is not to be viewed as a personal attack.

I live in America. Freedom of speech. I am not a robot who has been programmed to keep my mouth shut because someone might not like what I say.

It seems to me that you have expressed quite a few of your own opinions here. Just because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean they are launching a personal attack against you. It's just a disagreement, a different POV. Every one has one.

Donnette Smith
Author of Lady Gabriella
www.freewebs.com/romanceauthor
www.myspace.com/storycreater   

midnightcandle

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Re: X2 MANIFESTO
« Reply #43 on: June 05, 2008, 12:11:17 PM »
I've had my share of disagreements on this forum (with people on this thread even). BUT for every disagreement , Caffers, I have received much more help and friendship. Its about being adult enough to agree to disagree. Sorry that you are going so soon. :)

Offline Donnettetxgirl

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Re: X2 MANIFESTO
« Reply #44 on: June 05, 2008, 01:29:37 PM »
Clearly, if your posts don't sound like the posts of someone who feels insulted, & upset, I don't know what does. they pretty much speak for themselves don't they? From what I see the only one screaming & name-calling is you.

Another thing, from what I've learned, writing experience is precious. Do we all not strive to be better writers? I know I do. And if you're referring to me, I've never looked down my nose at anyone. 

If you were to leave, I don't think you'd hurt the feelings of any of us XXXXX.

Donnette Smith
Author of Lady Gabriella
www.freewebs.com/romanceauthor
www.myspace.com/storycreater

 



« Last Edit: June 06, 2008, 03:26:42 AM by CarrieSheppard »