the "What makes something poetry?" discussion

[Jeremy]

There could be some great poetry that's written for the poet, no one else. People have found someone's poetry after she died, and it's to some acclaim. It's not bad poetry, it's just not written for anyone else.

Doesn't mean it's dim or pretentious.

I'd rather write the bad stuff I used to write because I was happier with it.

The vast majority of published stuff is bad. It's just a percentage, a figure, but I believe it to be true.

It's an art. Publishing should not be the end.

[Mark H]

There could be some great poetry that's written for the poet, no one else. People have found someone's poetry after she died, and it's to some acclaim. It's not bad poetry, it's just not written for anyone else.

Doesn't mean it's dim or pretentious.

Agreed. 

But …

The truest poets wrote for themselves before anyone else, and come luck, someone else liked it.

Means …

“I had a wank in the mall and hoped the shoppers would get some small pleasure from it.”

Nope! You did it solely for your own dubious reasons.

EDIT: I consider the line above in green to be poetry. Deny it if you will.

[Amie]

I wonder if this argument isn't getting a bit off track?

It is possible that someone might write for themselves, and have others appreciate it as well.  It is possible that someone would write for themselves, and come up with things others despise.  I think where the argument is getting muddied is that if you put it out for review, the implication is that you are writing for others.  Not everyone (impossible) but someone besides yourself.  Otherwise, why put it out there?  

I agree that publishing should not be the end, but I do think reaching your target audience should be.  And if your target audience is only yourself, then there's no need to do anything more than keep in it your diary and savour it, as you'll have already reached that audience.

I think the art is learning how to reach people, how to translate whatever it was that thrilled you enough to prompt you to write into something affects another person in the way you intended (hopefully to the same or similar extent that you did).

[Amie]

EDIT: I consider the line above in green to be poetry. Deny it if you will.

Found!!


I had a wank in the mall
and hoped.

The shoppers would get some
small pleasure from it.

[Mark H]

I think that may be one of my better pieces. 

C

[Amie]

I don't write with a thematic emotion in mind, usually. Most of my stuff is fueled by sonics.

I meant to comment on this earlier.  I think you should try writing with a theme, experience, or emotion in mind. If it's just fuelled by sonics, you'd be better off writing music - much greater range of instruments/sounds than can be achieved with just a voice.  I agree that your stuff sounds great when read aloud, but I want the whole shebang when I read poetry:  meaning, experience, insight, emotion - and if it sounds great too, then I'm in heaven.  If I just want sonics, I'll play some music.

[Jeremy]

f*ck the world and be nice to her in the morning.
   --rap song

[HaroHalola]

Hey All - I'm gonna' briefly weigh-in, not my usual tack, here, but since Sat made a reference to my Work...

Are we speaking (no pun) of "Poems," or Poetry?  B/c someone learns to move the pieces on a chessboard; learns some guitar chords; boils water... you see my drift!  This may seem antithetical (& I'll take the certain-to-be hits), but any ArtForm must conform to an "historical" structure, of sorts, that which has gotten (consciously or not) the Artist to his/her position.  Now, there are certainly those "geniuses" whom seem, like chimera, to appear sylph-like with seemingly novelle scribendi, perhaps, like Jimi Hendrix, Mozart, or T.S. Eliot... but even there, traces of forbearance is detected.  Shakespeare?  Well, there was Marlowe (& Dryden).  So, what IS Poetry?  The Maestro - my Voice Teacher - was fond of reminding, "Singing is (beautiful) speech on Pitch."  One definition of  Poetry is/are speakings in a beautiful, & unusual way, encompassing form... "Poems" are the subduction, the difference bet. "Liking and Love."  As Sat reiterated, I Write for myself; with an everpresent notion to expansiveness to the Human community's sentience & symbiosis for meaning.  Thx -   H'H./H.e.m.

[eric]

I think Hem. has given us an eloquent and insightful essay on poetry.  I agree with what he says. 

That said, I have to add that I agree with Saturnine that poetry is communication (if only to one's self and the muses).  Hem. may write for himself, as he says, but he also surely writes (and well) to communicate with those who follow him.  His latest exchange with IJG seems to show this.  Just a note.

[Mark H]

If I refer to my “dictionary for thicko’s” (tis ever by my side) I find:

Poetry: the art of writing poems

Poem: imaginative piece of writing in rhythmic lines

Obfuscate: make something confusing

[Amie]

Okay.  Now define "imaginative".  One could argue that whenever you produce a bit of writing, however banal and nondescript it may seem to others, you are using your imagination and therefore being "imaginative"

[Mark H]

Sattie

Those dimwits that complied my dictionary had not read your posting on abstraction so we must forgive them. 

Maybe though, this is the crux of the problem. If you’re a poetry-pundit, then you will have seen so much poetry that your own idea of “imaginative” gets pushed further and further into the realms of the ridiculous.

Terrified of appearing un-imaginative our HPP (hero-poetry-pundit) stretches the bounds of language and format until he/she ends up with a magnificent suit of emperor’s new clothes. HPP will of course be extremely clever and so can easily justify (through sophistry) the flashing of the emperor’s arse to the public.

Tabbie

[Amie]

Maybe though, this is the crux of the problem. If you’re a poetry-pundit, then you will have seen so much poetry that your own idea of “imaginative” gets pushed further and further into the realms of the ridiculous.

May be true for some.  But if you read the top poetry publications and anthologies, I think you'll find that very little of it falls within the realms of the ridiculous. 

Quite often when you see something that looks like it's trying too hard, it's from someone who's just starting out, knows that they don't like trite greeting card sentiments, but haven't yet found their voice, so go on about dripping knives and maggoted flesh and (other imagery chosen strictly for shock value rather than meaning), and use lots of obscure faux-creepy words.  it's sort of the poetic equivalent of becoming a goth.  Most well-respected poets don't do it, although they may have succumbed temporarily in their teens and early twenties

Of course, having said that, there's an audience for just about everything, and the ENC phenomenon you mentioned definitely exists too.

[fordy]

Life is a poem

[Mark H]

Fordy,

I’ve not seen you since the incident with the inflatable doll! 

What sort of poem is your life dude? Does it have a refrain?

Citabria