Author Topic: the "What makes something poetry?" discussion  (Read 21171 times)

Offline Amie

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Re: the "What makes something poetry?" discussion
« Reply #60 on: October 24, 2007, 12:11:40 PM »
A solution? What is to solve? Someone writes; to you it's poetry, to me it's not. So what? Why the rush to lable and categorise? Let the writer write.

for the most part I agree with you fordy.  to me, I don't care what you call something, as long as it's a pleasure to read (or makes me think at least).  But people do make the comment from time to time (ie "this isn't poetry";  I've seen it made by at least 5 different posters on this board in the last few months), so I was interested in what people mean when they say that, and what people consider to be essential for them in poetry.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2007, 12:17:54 PM by Saturnine »
"You do not need to leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and listen. Do not even listen, simply wait, be quiet still and solitary. The world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked, it has no choice, it will roll in ecstasy at your feet." - Kafka

Offline Amie

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Re: the "What makes something poetry?" discussion
« Reply #61 on: October 24, 2007, 12:15:30 PM »
This will be on the same "Page" as Sat., I believe; briefly, for me, & subjectively-so, the "Music" (amongst the primary, "1st. there was Sound") has always come 1st., (why it took me the better part of my Life to appreciate the "Genius" of B. Dylan) as the visceral must permeate/"get-through" before I attend to the "message" (no surprise, here, why "Primitive" Cultures had little/or none of Written Language).  This, of course, upon introspection has also turned-up my familial acculturation, where "little" meaningful attention was given to overt "communication," another matter, though again, subjective.

But "Key" is Communication, & from our vantage point here, Screed "don't cut It," why the Morld is as It is!, the dumbing down...

Beauty through Form without "Form," whatever Intelligently moves, viscerally/inertially... "Art (Poetry), is Energy shaped by Intelligence! (Rimbaud?).   H'H./H.e.m.

I can go with all of this  - thanks for this H.e.m.   :)

Music is perhaps subjective, and many people would insist that they don't need music in their poetry.  But I like as a minimum something that flows and has a cadence appropriate to the theme (ie that would include jarring language if the theme is jarring and more musical language where the theme is meant to entrance).
"You do not need to leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and listen. Do not even listen, simply wait, be quiet still and solitary. The world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked, it has no choice, it will roll in ecstasy at your feet." - Kafka

Offline HaroHalola

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Re: the "What makes something poetry?" discussion
« Reply #62 on: October 24, 2007, 12:50:44 PM »
TY, Sat. - Further, is it not the Passion, nay, mission of the Artist to convey/portray the Sense(sual) (esp. Literature) from the Abstract to the Sentient? Few do It, & yet fewer have done It well, I think; not an overt liability, surely, but an inherent difficulty in making "Pie from Apparitions;"  This is my truck w/Critics, the inherent limitations with the aforementioned.  I would reference anyone to Hesse's Demian, the 2-3 Pages of passages describing a "Music Experience," which "Play" right from the Page!, an unequaled tour-de-force of "impossible" Abstraction to Sentience!  To wit, how does One effectively describe the "taste of pistachio!?"   H'H./H.e.m.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2007, 07:10:57 PM by HaroHalola »
""WE ARE NOT DEFINED BY OUR POETRY, RATHER OUR POETRY DEFINED BY US!""

Love, through a Sacred sharing of Body
the enfusion of Two Hearts,
Love, the enfusion of Two Hearts
through a Sacred sharing of Body.

                               H.e.m./H'H.
                               9.11.MMv

Offline Amie

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Re: the "What makes something poetry?" discussion
« Reply #63 on: October 24, 2007, 02:02:28 PM »
TY, Sat. - Further, is it not the Passion, nay, mission of the Artist to convey/portray the Sense(sual) (esp. Literature) from the Abstract to the Sentient?

Absolutely!

Quote
This is my truck w/Critics, the inherent limitations with the aforementioned.  I would reference anyone to Hesse's Demian, the 2-3 Pages of passages describing a "Music Experience," which "Play" right from the Page!, an unequaled tour-de-force of "impossible" Abstraction to Sentience!  To wit, how does One effectively describe the "taste of pistachio!?"   H'H/H.e.m.

fair enough - and I understand why you feel this way.  You are confident of your voice, and know that there is a meaning in every letter you type.  Others however don't necessarily have this confidence, or don't know how to express themselves in a way that engages others.  No single person can ever say "this is the way", but there are certain techniques which are useful to know, even if only to say, "that's not what I want".

I suppose it's a bit like painting - you may want to go totally abstract, but if you don't, there are guidelines with respect to perspective, ratios, colour harmonies, symbolism, etc.  I feel that it's better to eschew these guidelines after you know they exist and why they're there rather than before.
"You do not need to leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and listen. Do not even listen, simply wait, be quiet still and solitary. The world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked, it has no choice, it will roll in ecstasy at your feet." - Kafka

Offline Mark H

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Re: the "What makes something poetry?" discussion
« Reply #64 on: October 24, 2007, 02:36:09 PM »
Fordy

Quote
A solution? What is to solve? Someone writes; to you it's poetry, to me it's not. So what? Why the rush to label and categorise? Let the writer write.

Personally I would never say something isnít poetry. I might say I donít like it or I might ignore it, but I wouldnít tell a writer how to label his own work. I only offered a potential solution because the question was asked.  :)

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Offline fordy

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Re: the "What makes something poetry?" discussion
« Reply #65 on: October 24, 2007, 02:50:07 PM »
...  But people do make the comment from time to time (ie "this isn't poetry";  I've seen it made by at least 5 different posters on this board in the last few months), so I was interested in what people mean when they say that, and what people consider to be essential for them in poetry.

Yes they do and and I wish they wouldn't!  

As I think you have pointed out before Sat, its fine to say that we like or don't like something - that's a perfectly valid personal opinion - but to attempt define something out of existence (this isn't poetry) because it offends our personal taste is simply intellectual fascism.  

In a general sense, I agree that it's important to understand the conventions of form, before you violate them (if only to form a defence against your detractors  :D)

Would a more fruitful question be; "What do you like in a poem?"

BTW, my tounge was firmly in my cheek when I commented earlier about poets not agreeing on this board.  ;D
If I always do what I always did, I'll always get what I always got.

Offline Amie

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Re: the "What makes something poetry?" discussion
« Reply #66 on: October 24, 2007, 02:56:01 PM »
As I think you have pointed out before Sat, its fine to say that we like or don't like something - that's a perfectly valid personal opinion - but to attempt define something out of existence (this isn't poetry) because it offends our personal taste is simply intellectual fascism.  
...
Would a more fruitful question be; "What do you like in a poem?"

I agree 100%.  I'd change the title of this thread, except I'd have to change the opening post as well and none of the subsequent posts would make any sense.  Perhaps we should start a new thread?
"You do not need to leave your room. Remain sitting at your table and listen. Do not even listen, simply wait, be quiet still and solitary. The world will freely offer itself to you to be unmasked, it has no choice, it will roll in ecstasy at your feet." - Kafka

Leigh

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Re: the "What makes something poetry?" discussion
« Reply #67 on: October 24, 2007, 10:07:37 PM »
'What makes something poetry"-?   

Potter Stewart: 'I know it when I see it'-!  ;D

Offline Allie

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Re: the "What makes something poetry?" discussion
« Reply #68 on: October 25, 2007, 02:59:40 PM »
Well, mea culpa. It was I who most recently made the offending comment, on a thread that has now been removed by the poet (not because of my comment, apparently). I did add that this was 'to my mind,' so it wasn't meant as a decree from some place on high. If anyone is interested, I said it out of total bewilderment at the piece of work I had just read and as an emotional release, since physically shaking the poet to get out the real poem wasn't possible, permissible or ethical.

I have written a lot of what I would call poetry, that is, it is poetry in the sense that it is a genuine attempt to convey my emotions and view of the world to readers in language that would not be suited to narrative form. However, I don't claim that it is good poetry, and know that many other people wouldn't even consider it to be poetry, because I tend to say things in too obvious a way, notwithstanding my desire to avoid true narrative. There probably are plenty of other reasons, too.

My statement could be seen as a 'cry for help' against those postings that happily label every poem 'fantastic,' 'genius' or whatever without offering any evidence as to why they think this. When I first joined MWC, I leaned perhaps too much towards honesty and gradually amended this stance. A spell on other writing sites (mainly fiction) has since reinstated my belief that a high degree of honest feedback is necessary for progress as a writer, whether fiction author or poet.

I think that the harshness of my comment may be mitigated somewhat by the fact that it was levelled at someone who wielded his own words like a sword when commenting on other people's work. I would not dream of saying this about the work of someone who did not so obviously hold his or her own work in such high regard. However, it has occurred to me that we should have a special anonymous board to which poets might surrender their precious works for similarly anonymous critical dissection and analysis. 

 




Offline HaroHalola

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Re: the "What makes something poetry?" discussion
« Reply #69 on: October 25, 2007, 04:13:17 PM »
Allie - I Read (& "Critiqued") "Autumn Light," so what'd'ya' mean!?... Know I mean?   H'H./H.e.m.
""WE ARE NOT DEFINED BY OUR POETRY, RATHER OUR POETRY DEFINED BY US!""

Love, through a Sacred sharing of Body
the enfusion of Two Hearts,
Love, the enfusion of Two Hearts
through a Sacred sharing of Body.

                               H.e.m./H'H.
                               9.11.MMv

Offline Allie

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Re: the "What makes something poetry?" discussion
« Reply #70 on: October 25, 2007, 05:39:20 PM »
I'm not sure, H. You read and critiqued Autumn Light and offered me constructive advice. That doesn't affect this discussion - at least, I can't see how it does. :)

Offline HaroHalola

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Re: the "What makes something poetry?" discussion
« Reply #71 on: October 25, 2007, 06:33:09 PM »
Allie - For my ears & eyes, your Poem(s) is Poetry, by deduction/reduction (Writing spartan) anoints you A Poet!  Wear the mantle, It trumpets...   H'H./H.e.m.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2007, 07:12:01 PM by HaroHalola »
""WE ARE NOT DEFINED BY OUR POETRY, RATHER OUR POETRY DEFINED BY US!""

Love, through a Sacred sharing of Body
the enfusion of Two Hearts,
Love, the enfusion of Two Hearts
through a Sacred sharing of Body.

                               H.e.m./H'H.
                               9.11.MMv

Offline Allie

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Re: the "What makes something poetry?" discussion
« Reply #72 on: October 25, 2007, 06:43:27 PM »
Thank you, H. I accept the mantle, while harbouring no illusions under it. You know I enjoy your poems. :)

Offline thatollie

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Re: the "What makes something poetry?" discussion
« Reply #73 on: October 25, 2007, 06:47:48 PM »
What makes something poetry? The question was raised and I also have an idea, If people debate about it for longer than most people think it should be debated about, then it's gotta be poetry.
Never make a decision standing up.

Offline HaroHalola

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Re: the "What makes something poetry?" discussion
« Reply #74 on: October 25, 2007, 07:01:07 PM »
Allie - TY!   H'H./H.e.m.
""WE ARE NOT DEFINED BY OUR POETRY, RATHER OUR POETRY DEFINED BY US!""

Love, through a Sacred sharing of Body
the enfusion of Two Hearts,
Love, the enfusion of Two Hearts
through a Sacred sharing of Body.

                               H.e.m./H'H.
                               9.11.MMv