My Writers Circle

Writing => All the Write Questions => Topic started by: lamont cranston on December 29, 2016, 02:30:55 PM

Title: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on December 29, 2016, 02:30:55 PM
I found that an old school chum is now...an editor.  And teaching writing.  And it sounded like he was doing that a lot.  So I sent him my first 20 pages and a synopsis.  The agreement was I'd get a marked up copy of each of them, when he was done.

I think he may have skimmed the synopsis but of the 20 pages, all he gave me was 3 word corrections to the first page...nothing else.  And they were very, very minor corrections.  There were a lot of questions that, that I think he would not have asked if he had read the 20 pages and the synopsis.

The work product he agreed to produce, for $40 bucks an hour, was a marked up copy of the 1st 20 pages, and a marked up copy of the synopsis.  Instead, I got a phone call, and yes, there were a few good tips, but honestly?  I didn't feel like he'd gone through the whole 20 pages really, at all, and that was what we agreed to for the first 2 hours.  I do think he skimmed the 20 pages, but very quickly, and not to the detail we agreed upon.

Now he says he's looking forward to reading the rest of the book....that's a lot of money I'd be paying for him to do that.

That's ah, 20 pages an hour, and so, 20 hours of work.  And I don't mind paying it, but I need to see a work product that really makes me feel like the work was done.  And I need to feel like it was more than just skimmed quickly. 

So, what I did: I asked him to email me the work product for this part of the work (synopsis and 20 pages).  I'm really hoping I see something more confidence building, when I get that.

Does this sound hopeless?  Does it sound like I got ripped off?  I really, really like this person and always felt like he was very smart, and very interesting, and a good writer....but I'm just not sure yet, that the work is gonna come out of him.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: hillwalker3000 on December 29, 2016, 06:36:08 PM
Now he says he's looking forward to reading the rest of the book....that's a lot of money I'd be paying for him to do that.
That's ah, 20 pages an hour, and so, 20 hours of work.  And I don't mind paying it, but I need to see a work product that really makes me feel like the work was done.  And I need to feel like it was more than just skimmed quickly. 
So, what I did: I asked him to email me the work product for this part of the work (synopsis and 20 pages).  I'm really hoping I see something more confidence building, when I get that.

I obviously don't know your friend but it sounds like he's hoping you'll invite him to read the rest of the book for a fat fee, or he wants you to take one of his writing courses. Either way he's hoping to make a fast buck at your expense. You say you don't mind paying it, but I don't see how it's going to help you get the book published unless he has contacts and can get your book read by someone in the publishing business.

Personally I'd never ask an 'old chum' to read my work and offer honest feedback let alone edit it for me. It's like asking your family if they enjoyed your latest book. No one's going to tell you it stinks.

H3K
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on December 29, 2016, 06:50:15 PM
I don't mind paying for satisfactory work as contracted.  I don't expect him to get any publishers to look at the book. 

Also...I have done contract work(not editing, but other types of contract work).  And I don't know if others feel the same way, but I respond promptly to emails about work, and if I said I was going to do something by a certain date, I do it.  I don't just disappear for a week because I had 'guests'.  It's work.  Not a hobby.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on December 29, 2016, 07:03:46 PM
I obviously don't know your friend but it sounds like he's hoping you'll invite him to read the rest of the book for a fat fee, or he wants you to take one of his writing courses. Either way he's hoping to make a fast buck at your expense. You say you don't mind paying it, but I don't see how it's going to help you get the book published unless he has contacts and can get your book read by someone in the publishing business.

Personally I'd never ask an 'old chum' to read my work and offer honest feedback let alone edit it for me. It's like asking your family if they enjoyed your latest book. No one's going to tell you it stinks.

H3K

actually my husband has been very helpful and he'll tell me flat out if he thinks something stinks, though he's not rude about it.  In a few spots, he told me to do the opposite the editor did, so I'm picking for myself which way I prefer.   My husband taught language and linguistics.

The editor has a different focus too, like telling me one character should have stockholm syndrome.  And that if he doesn't I need to explain why, and that much of it is fine with me.  But the rest - to me it's a very popular misconception that all or even many captive or abused people get stockholm syndrome, and I have had other people say, well, he's got to have stockholm syndrome, then, right?  No, actually.  There's extensive research on why that does not always (or even often) happen, and i have a lot of experience in crisis intervention and legal research, to draw upon in that matter.  But like so many misconceptions about how people think, this one remains.

The original stockholm situation was, I believe a bank robbery with hostages.  Well, in another similar robbery with hostages, there was no stockholm syndrome at all, the (also women) captives actually boosted the robber up into the window to HELP him get shot by police again!   Stockholm syndrome is not a given in abuse and hostage situations.  So I should explain that more.  So I will.  But this character is not going to get stockholm syndrome to pander to audiences.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on December 29, 2016, 07:13:32 PM
Due to location I couldn't take a course from him, he knows that already.

Too....I think that when people teach these courses, they tend to draw from a fairly fixed, predictable, curriculum.  Some writers follow some elements of some of these, but I don't see all writers doing so all the time.  I think it's good to know those elements, and rules, and to write a lot following them, and gradually learn when not to.

For example, parts of The Grapes of Wrath has sentences that would probably get bounced out of such classes.

But they read like the damned Lord's Prayer, and they're beautiful, and they sear out a place in my brain for them.

I obviously don't know your friend but it sounds like he's hoping you'll invite him to read the rest of the book for a fat fee, or he wants you to take one of his writing courses.....
H3K
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: Laura H on December 29, 2016, 07:32:03 PM
You're already unhappy with the editing and response time. Imagine how unhappy you'll be once you've invested more money. You like this guy and consider him a friend, I think you're jeopardizing that if you continue.

I would consider it a lesson learned and search for a new editor, and a professional for whom it is not a hobby.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on December 29, 2016, 07:45:47 PM
I'm afraid that's it.

I'd feel better if I did get the promised marked up synopsis and first 20 pages, but not much better.

The first comment I got back was read one of those 'how to write great novels' books, so I thought oh no, he really thinks this entire thing is a disaster.  I thought that even more so when he didn't respond to my emails or respond on time with the call or the work products.

But when I talked to him, he said it just needed a few small changes, nothing major.

I'm very accustomed to a work environment where one answers one's calls and emails very promptly, and work products are returned close to the date promised.  I'm not sure the 'informality' of this arrangement is going to be a comfortable thing for me.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on December 29, 2016, 07:47:04 PM
Oh and I'm not so unrealistic that I don't expect delays.  But when they do happen, I think a quick note that it will be delayed, is in order.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: Gyppo on December 29, 2016, 07:56:52 PM
I'm inclined to agree with Laura.  Drop him as an editor and keep the friend.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: Jo Bannister on December 30, 2016, 04:27:09 AM
Absolutely.  It sounds as if you specified what you wanted in return for your payment, and you didn't get it.  Find someone who'll keep up their end of the contract.  Whether you like them or not is immaterial: you want them to deliver what you've paid for.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: heidi52 on December 30, 2016, 06:16:25 AM
Lesson: Don't do business with friends. Ever.

Hire a professional. Who cares if you like them? You aren't paying them to be your friend, you are paying them to edit your work.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: Arkie on December 30, 2016, 11:26:32 AM
Man....800$ for that? Yikes. It sounds like you did get ripped off, and I don't think I'd be real interested in keeping the person as a friend unless you can get it straightened out to your satisfaction. Buyer beware and all that, but that stinks!
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on December 31, 2016, 01:51:07 PM
No, $40 an hour, and 2 hours to read the first 20 pages and the synopsis and talk about it, and get marked up copies.

The entire book - which is rather long - would be around $800 by his rates.  $40/hr  is his 'friend rate'.

I just did not see any corrections on the 20 pages except 3 minor ones on the 1st page.

I really don't think that I didn't make any other errors on the entire other 19 pages.  I'm not THAT good.  There has to be at least a couple mistakes on those other 19 pages.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on December 31, 2016, 01:54:16 PM
 I don't have to like my editor, but I do have to see the work be done and I expect it to be a quality job.

I guess I just felt I was less likely to get a raw deal if I dealt with someone I knew. 

Well, I am reserving judgement until I don't get the first 20 pages corrections, but...it don't look good.

Does anyone have a US based paid editor that they would recommend? 



Lesson: Don't do business with friends. Ever.

Hire a professional. Who cares if you like them? You aren't paying them to be your friend, you are paying them to edit your work.

Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: qb on January 03, 2017, 05:24:50 PM
your mate sounds crazy
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on January 15, 2017, 08:15:57 AM
Well, friend said he'd mail the marked up copies "in a week".

I still haven't seen them. 

My hope is that I misunderstood, and that the marked up copies cost extra.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on January 15, 2017, 08:17:09 AM
I'm willing to pay him for what he thinks he's done so far, but I am not comfortable with signing him up to do anything additional.  He just hasn't been honored any dead lines or produced any work so far.  It's been two weeks since he said he'd send me the markups.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: Jo Bannister on January 15, 2017, 10:31:54 AM
I've got a better idea.  Why don't you pay him for what you think he's done so far, and never, ever ask him to work for you again?
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on January 15, 2017, 10:42:11 AM
You think that's a better idea.  I don't.  And it's me who is deciding what to do.  ;)

first, I'm going to have a conversation with him about what he understands he owes me for that eighty bucks.  Does he think that initially he told me the markups were going to cost more than the two hour charge?  Or has he simply not had the time to finish the work, and thinks it goes on that initial 2 hour tab?

Then I will decide what I'm going to do about the current work.  I have already decided to pay him for 2 hours work.  I'm even willing to pay him for 3 hours work if he believes that producing the markups was going to take more than the initial 2 hours.

But I have already decided about having or not have him read the whole book and get paid for it.  I'm not going to pay him to read the rest of the book.

If nothing else, he can't get work done on time.  He doesn't respond to emails in a timely fashion.  I don't like doing business with people who operate that way.  If the work is going to be delayed I want THAT PERSON to contact me BEFORE the due date, and tell me that the work will be delayed, and when it will be done, and then honor that.  Anyone can make a mistake on estimating work, I feel.  I've done it.  Or on under-estimating the intrusion of their other priorities.

Just as far as how the agreement is reached as to what will be done for X dollars, he doesn't have a written contract that clearly spells out what he's going to produce, so there is inevitably going to be confusion between what he thinks he's doing for X dollars and what the customer thinks he's doing.  I also don't like that way of doing work either.



I've got a better idea.  Why don't you pay him for what you think he's done so far, and never, ever ask him to work for you again?
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on January 15, 2017, 10:45:33 AM
I should add that it's extremely important to me that people I do business with are satisfied with how I settled up, even if they are screwing up right and left, I still believe there is usually a graceful exit.  I do not want anyone saying that I did not pay my bills.  Within reason, if it doesn't go my way, I just don't do business again with that person.

I've got a better idea.  Why don't you pay him for what you think he's done so far, and never, ever ask him to work for you again?
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: hillwalker3000 on January 15, 2017, 12:34:13 PM
Keep him as 'a friend' if you must, but ditch him as 'an editor'. You don't have to put up with the unprofessional manner in which way he conducts business. And I suggest you tell him why you're searching elsewhere for help.

H3K
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on January 15, 2017, 01:41:14 PM
As noted, that's already what I've decided to do.

I do know what he'll say if I tell him I find his behavior unprofessional - that he was planning on cutting back on his work this year due to some family issues, and he's doing as much as he can.

And that's fine.  I'm willing to put up with quite a lot but I still need to be told when work product will be delayed.  Before the due date comes and goes. 

I need the income from the book, and I can't wait around for anyone who can't deliver.

On a happy note, I was contacted by a bookstore that deals with a lot of small time local poets and authors.  They're interested in doing a book signing and presentation to the public.  I'll contact them after I have someone interested in the book.

Keep him as 'a friend' if you must, but ditch him as 'an editor'. You don't have to put up with the unprofessional manner in which way he conducts business. And I suggest you tell him why you're searching elsewhere for help.

H3K
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: G. London on January 18, 2017, 09:47:47 PM
I don't know what your goals are in writing, but you have to deal with professionals.  You already have your answer on the first "Editor".  Write him off and find a professional. Have a detailed discussion of what you expect before you pay.

I like plenty of people and have plenty of friends in my profession, that I would never hire to be involved in my professional work.

The real publishing world is brutal. If you're going up against that world you are only as strong as your weakest link.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on January 18, 2017, 10:14:38 PM
That is for sure.

I don't know what your goals are in writing, but you have to deal with professionals.  You already have your answer on the first "Editor".  Write him off and find a professional. Have a detailed discussion of what you expect before you pay.

I like plenty of people and have plenty of friends in my profession, that I would never hire to be involved in my professional work.

The real publishing world is brutal. If you're going up against that world you are only as strong as your weakest link.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on February 12, 2017, 01:27:57 AM
Well gang, two month have passed since I first contacted editor. 

Nothing.

Not even an answer to an email on settling up.

I'm pretty disgusted.  STILL willing to settle for two hours of work.  But...wow.

I think I'll try to find some beta readers and go from there.

The good thing of course is that I've been doing editing of my own - little corrections and improvements, taking some stuff out.  I'm actually pretty pleased with how that's going.

Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: Jo Bannister on February 12, 2017, 03:44:59 AM
That is a not inconsiderable silver lining.  As you progress as a writer, you'll need to be able to edit your own material effectively - sounds like this is the ideal time to learn.

As for your previous "editor", I think he - not you - has consigned both the business relationship and the friendship to the trash bin.  I doubt you've lost much on either count.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on February 12, 2017, 08:07:38 AM
definitely.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: Arkie on February 12, 2017, 07:49:45 PM
I'm sorry you didn't get a good resolution to the situation, but I'm glad you didn't get further in before things went south.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on February 14, 2017, 06:57:17 PM
Editor now says the 1st 20 pages will be marked up and emailed to me tomorrow.   we shall see.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: hillwalker3000 on February 14, 2017, 07:18:09 PM
And you still trust he'll have done a professional editing job? Don't hold your breath.

H3K
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on February 14, 2017, 09:05:08 PM
I'm going to judge the work when I see it.

And no, I'm not holding my breath. ;D

I can see how people get ripped off for sure.

Well..one of the ways, anyway.  I'm sure there's more.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: Lin on February 15, 2017, 04:36:11 AM
I have a very good editor who doesn't charge a fortune and she edits the whole book. She is well known for her work as she worked with a large publishing house and is very positive.  It's a good idea these days to employ an editor, as you never see your own mistakes before sending to a publisher.  I have a very good rapport with her and have paid for two sessions.  One is checking for timelines and providing a general report with suggestions on how to improve it and the other is a proper edit line by line.  Her return time isn't too quick because she is thorough, but within a month I usually have my work returned. It's a good feeling to have someone beside you who has read your work thoroughly and knows what sort of writer you are. It gives you more confidence that you not sending out a book with errors. It think it's best to go with recommendations and not use friends.

Good luck, we've all had to learn by our mistakes.

Lin
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on February 15, 2017, 11:22:42 AM
But this could have happened with anyone.  I am sure it's not good to do business with a friend, and to not have a contract, but I've heard plenty of stories about 'more professional' editors not returning work for months and not giving a decent in depth critique.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: hillwalker3000 on February 15, 2017, 12:56:14 PM
You're right. One publishing house (I'll not name) had an editor who managed to insert 2 typos in my finished book even after I'd pointed them out to her and asked her to change her revisions.

H3K
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on February 16, 2017, 06:55:13 AM
Well I got 6 pages of 20, and....he actually rewrote it.  Completely.  I have to go do something but will elaborate later.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on February 16, 2017, 12:02:14 PM
Yeah he just put in all this stuff.  To me it makes it sound like a really schlocky made for tv movie.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: hillwalker3000 on February 16, 2017, 12:06:03 PM
I trust he's not being paid by the word - or indeed, at all.

H3K
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on February 16, 2017, 12:21:35 PM
No this is part of the original 2 hours of work he promised to do in the first place.  I know many do not agree with me, but I am willing to pay him for 2hrs work as we agreed.  I'm not rich but I pay what I said I was going to pay.

After I get that in hand I'll tell him that's it.  Not until.

The changes he wants so far - he just rewrote huge sections.  And normally, when people give me suggestions I am very receptive.  But these changes just really bother me.

For example.  Wants the MC to have a specific kind of psychological reaction in one situation, something that is actually fairly rare and doesn't fit the situation at all.  And later, a psychologist actually EXPLAINS(in very simple terms) why the MC doesn't have this type of psychological reaction.

Also wants to jazz up a scene in which the MC is attacked.  In a way that I think would be extremely unlikely for the attacker to do - that character is a violent criminal and is usually drunk or high (disinhibited). 

I feel like I know these guys.  If I haven't made it clear enough to the reader who they are, I can correct that.  But I don't want them doing things that are completely out of character for them.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: hillwalker3000 on February 16, 2017, 01:17:59 PM
It's extremely unusual for an editor to rewrite a piece of writing. They will point out grammatical errors and inconsistencies as well as certain stylistic or 'voice' issues. But this guy sounds more like a wannabe novelist.

H3K
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on February 16, 2017, 01:25:09 PM
He didn't rewrite it all, every word, but he rewrote large sections.  I guess I called it a rewrite because to me there was a great deal changed, far more than I expected.

And the first line is changed...and...well, quite a lot of the first 7 pages.

I just don't like most of the changes.  I think it makes it too much like a schlocky daytime movie.  

I expected to see things like grammatical errors flagged, places where he doesn't like the wording ('too wordy, shorten' or 'need to show here, not tell') or logistics like 'Bob never entered the room, and now he's doing stuff in the room, whaaaa?'

Or if there was a really major flaw or a place where he didn't like the style, he'd say, 'this isn't believable for me' or something like that.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: hillwalker3000 on February 16, 2017, 02:26:19 PM
You're allowed to ignore his advice.

H3K
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on February 16, 2017, 02:43:46 PM
Well, yeah, I just wonder if he's trying to get me to write the same kind of book I want to write.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: Artemis Quark on February 16, 2017, 04:14:10 PM
You've shown infinite patience. Maybe venting here has allowed you to do it. But your editor needs to be canned. He's wasting your time and getting paid to do it.  ???
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on February 16, 2017, 04:29:46 PM
I know.   ;D
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: Jo Bannister on February 17, 2017, 04:43:19 AM
One of the things - the many things! - you have to watch with all editors, independent and publishers', is that they're not wannabe writers trying to use your book as their vehicle.  You don't want them to rewrite your book.  You want them to pick up errors of fact, grammar or continuity, to notice if you're under- or over-explaining, and to suggest better, more succinct or more marketable ways of presenting your work.

In thirty-odd years and thirty-odd books I've had editors I liked and editors I had to try hard to like, but I also had one - just one - who thought my book ought to be her book.  I looked at the amount of blue pencil on the first three pages and sent it back to the publishers, pointing out that they'd bought the book I'd written and that was what I expected them to publish.  To their credit, the typescript went directly to the senior editor who did the job herself, and it came back exactly as I hoped.  We had no further problems.

I know it doesn't feel like it, but you have to remember that the author is in fact in the driving seat.  No authors, no books, no publishers; no publishers, we authors can still self-publish or tell stories the way our predecessors did, sitting round the camp-fire.

Be professional.  Co-operate wherever possible.  But be true to your book, and don't let anyone walk all over you. 
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: hillwalker3000 on February 17, 2017, 05:14:59 AM
^^ Hear hear. I think your pal has got a hell of a nerve and you should maybe tell him so. It's a hard lesson but he probably did you a favour. Be selective in who you share your work with - and if there's money involved do your research.

H3K
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on February 17, 2017, 06:19:55 PM
beautifully said, thanks
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: Lin on February 18, 2017, 05:20:27 PM
A real editor should never rewrite part of your story for you. This is your story, not theirs.  You should have track changes in the margins and if you asked for a report, they should give one for the whole book, chapter by chapter if necessary, but comment on the various aspects of the writing.  eg. Grammar, show/tell, timelines, spelling, punctuation, and anything they feel will be helpful to you.  The text should be left alone or suggestions made in the track changes. The report should be a separate document from the manuscript. The final edit should be reported for errors in the track changes, then it's up to you to get on with the final edits and correct them.  

I would sack this guy!

Lin  ;)



Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on February 18, 2017, 05:22:42 PM
track changes?
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: Jo Bannister on February 19, 2017, 04:11:58 AM
That's how we work too.  Track changes marks questionable words, paragraphs, whatever in the main body of the text and provides a secondary box running parallel to it in which the query and the thinking behind it can be explained.  You can then accept or reject the changes proposed, inserting your own explanation into the parallel box and marking your update in a different colour in the main text.

It's actually easier than it sounds!  The big advantage is that nothing disappears - you can literally track the changes and revert to your original if you choose to.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: hillwalker3000 on February 19, 2017, 06:34:42 AM
track changes?

It's what most writers use when critiquing, redrafting, etc.

If you use Microsoft Word, the editor/beta reader can click on the Review tab at the top of the document window before making any suggestions/corrections/deletions. These 'comments' appear in a side bar - numbered from the first proposal to the last. But the main body of your text remains unchanged - and you are at liberty to accept or reject any proposed changes.

H3K
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on February 19, 2017, 11:03:47 AM
Okay, I see how that works.  I worked in business all my life and never saw anyone use that feature before.

The way this editor marked up the document, the original text is gone, and is replaced with his wording.  On the left margin, is a red vertical bar, showing where he changed from the original.  The whole document is almost all red bar, LOL.

On the right is a little 'bubble'  (like for dialog in cartoons) that you must click on, and then you can see his  comments - sometimes the comment is a question, and sometimes it's a comment as to why he likes his change better.

He did make a comment that he would be proud to present it as his own work, and since he's so deeply emotionally involved in the work, he can do a really great job at making the right changes.

I reviewed ALL the changes to the first 7 pages (didn't get the first 20 on Wednesday, just the first seven).

I reviewed with a beta reader and a person who has been helping me with editing.

No one liked ANY of the changes recommended.

Same criticism: "It's just not the story you're telling", and "sounds like a lousy daytime movie".

My friend (beta reader) with background in academia doesn't like the repeated 'John said' and 'Mary said'.  I explained that I started out the way he likes, but changed it because the writer's advice writers say people skip pages and all the dialog needs to be identified so anyone can land on any page and know who's talking, and that  words like 'said' are supposed to 'disappear' and not be a problem or seem repetitive, but he's adamant.  He insists that needs to be changed.

I'm not sure what to do about that.  Most of the things people say in the story are very brief.  So that the dialog may consist of several comments, but all are brief.  

I think what I am going to do is look at longer stretches of dialog and see if I can improve them without 'unidentifying' people too much.  

Since the main character has a mild mental disability, I try to keep most of the story in tune with his abilities.  He wouldn't say, 'she queried' or 'she mused' or anything like that.  Actually was rather difficult for me as I tend to use more complex sentence structure and wording myself.  But I felt it was important to not remove the narrator too far from...inside his head.

Not entirely sure what to do about that.  Both points of view seem valid.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: hillwalker3000 on February 19, 2017, 12:58:41 PM
My friend (beta reader) with background in academia doesn't like the repeated 'John said' and 'Mary said'.  I explained that I started out the way he likes, but changed it because the writer's advice writers say people skip pages and all the dialog needs to be identified so anyone can land on any page and know who's talking, and that  words like 'said' are supposed to 'disappear' and not be a problem or seem repetitive, but he's adamant.  He insists that needs to be changed.

I'm not sure who's giving you this advice but it's not strictly right. If your dialogue only involves two people it's going to be easy to keep track of who said what as long as you occasionally identify the speaker (by an action tag or a he said/she said). If people 'land on any page' and can't tell who said what, that's their problem not yours. If there's 3 or 4 that still doesn't mean every line of speech needs a speech tag. If you don't believe me, pick up any novel that includes dialogue.

H3K
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on February 19, 2017, 01:47:37 PM
That makes a lot more sense to me.  Thanks!
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: Gyppo on February 19, 2017, 02:16:53 PM
On the 'he said'/'she said' issue...

There is something to be said for both using and not using these tags. It is vital that the reader knows who is speaking.  But as long as your characters have distinct individual voices you won't need a tag on each line.  However, this doesn't mean that one has to speak with a broad rural accent and the other as if they've orally engulfed a dictionary ;-)  That works, but it soon starts to feel a bit contrived.

If your beta readers are saying they lose track during long stretches of dialogue then something needs to be done.  I'll make a suggestion about this in a minute.  But, before you start making wholesale changes, or driving yourself mad trying to double guess your readers in advance, bear this in mind.

There are a great many people out there, especially those who have never written anything more literary than a shopping list, who have been brainwashed into thinking the average reader - meaning anyone less clever than their own self perception - has the attention span of a dead goldfish and the IQ of a rock.  Therefore we are told to make sure these supposedly disinterested people can understand what we are writing.  God forbid we make it difficult for them.

If they're that butterfly brained, that stupid, then they're not going to buy books anyway.  I happen to believe the average reader is a damned sight smarter than many 'experts' give them credit for.   If not we'd all be watching silent videos - surely the ultimate in 'show don't tell' - and occasionally grunting at each other.

Yes, we need to use language appropriate to our target reader, but we're not writing for morons are we?  Some famous writers write simplified stories for 'reluctant readers', and they turn out to be damned good books without being at all condescending.  They just lack the frills that most of us take for granted.

Back to the chase.  Action tags can do a wonderful job of breaking up long conversations.  No conversation happens in a vacuum.  Imagine your two characters are talking during a car journey.  There can be brief references to the traffic, the view outside the car, even the weather.  They just serve as an extra hook to keep the reader on track.

"Are we ever going to get there?" Frances looked at the tailback, three lanes, jammed solid.

You can use raised eyebrows, fingers drumming on the wheel, windows being wound up or down, air-con controls being fiddled with, stuff like that.  People move restlessly in their seats, they're not waxworks dummies.  

"Have a drink."  John passed over a still sealed bottle of water.  "It's lost the chill but it's still wet."

Action tags are almost invisible, but as the name suggests, they also add a little bit of movement to the dialogue.  Which is always a good thing as it helps to avoid 'talking head syndrome' and dialogue being used solely as exposition.  They also avoid the bland he said/she said repetition.  Maybe look on them as seasoning, not too much and not too little.  Like Goldilocks and the porridge.

Ian Rankin and Lee Child both make good use of action tags, but you'll have to be looking for them to realise what they're doing.

Gyppo

PS:  But please don't ever use the word ejaculated as an action tag to intensify a single word reply.  (It just carries too much unintended baggage.  It was fine back in the days when intercourse could also just mean conversation, or getting to know people.  But those days have gone.)

"Never!" John ejaculated.

Gyppo


 

 
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on February 19, 2017, 02:26:18 PM
LOL, so true, thanks!
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on February 19, 2017, 07:14:51 PM
I wrote to the person and told him I did not want him doing any further work on the project.

HE replied that he knew it wouldn't work out because of my response to his initial comments on his first suggestions.  

What I am wondering, is if he REALLY believed that from the start, WHY DID HE SEEK ADDITIONAL WORK ON IT AND WHY DID HE PROPOSE HE EDIT THE ENTIRE BOOK?  It's a LOOOOONG book!

To his credit, he didn't want to be paid.  He said it was just an 'exploratory discussion'.  My guess is that he thinks if he doesn't push me to pay him, I won't complain to anyone about him.

Here's an example.  This is one of his initial recommendations after reading the synopsis and first 20 pages:

The main character should have Stockholm Syndrome.

I said I wasn't interested in making that change, and he said, okay, but then make clear why he hasn't got Stockholm Syndrome.

I didn't feel that was necessary, because Stockholm Syndrome simply is not anywhere near universal or assumed in such situations.  In fact, in comparison, the hostage situation that started the term 'Stockholm Syndrome' has often been contrasted to a similar situation (bank hostages) in which the hostages held the assailant up to a window to HELP the police shoot him some more!  

It's almost a guarantee that Stockholm Syndrome will NOT occur if there is any physical violence against the hostages.  And according to several psychiatrists I discussed the matter with, Stockholm Syndrome is actually rather rare!  It is by no means a given when hostages or kidnappings or 'unlawful detainment' occurs.

The main character has a mental disability and was abused and exploited by a couple (this is not modeled on a specific crime, but such crimes are very common and there have been some particularly brutal and horrific crimes like this against people with mental disabilities).  Since only one of the couple was beating him, editor felt the MC should be sympathetic toward the person not beating him.  

That person was 'kind' to him (threw a piece of leftover pizza on the floor in his room every few days, that was all he got to eat...he was basically getting starved to death to force him to surrender the deed to his house).

But in fact, I made it very clear very early on that he despised both of them, including the more passive person.  He stated clearly that he had already decided that if he ever got out of there, he would hate her the most.  She didn't show him any kindness.  She was complicit, she sat there and watched while he got beat up, she reinforced the rules the chief abuser laid down when the chief abuser was out of the house.  The chief abuser told the MC that she was his 'eyes and ears' and he better not try anything while he was out of the house, or his partner would tell him about it and he'd be punished.  

This parallels the rage that many abused adult children feel toward the passive parent.  Many times, people are MORE angry at the passive parent who is complicit in the abuse.

There was no good place to add it early on, but I did find a spot to add, later in the story, some explanation from the MC's doctor as to why the MC was not sympathetic to the more passive person in the crime.  Just a brief sardonic comment, really.

He also wanted me to add more 'suspense' to a scene in which the abuser attacks the MC.  

I had conceived of this scene as being very similar to something I experienced...waiting alone in a room, and knowing I'd be attacked but not exactly when, then being attacked violently and quickly.  To me this was like a whirlwind.  The suspense was all in the room when the MC was by himself.  He could sense something was coming, just not exactly when to the moment.

Well, editor wanted me to expand out the fight scene, presumably to add suspense, and have the MC NEARLY fall over a lamp,  step over it, the attacker hit the LAMP with a belt, the attacker gets a pock marked face and an evil grin, and a lot of other things that I was just like...wow...this just looks like a cheap daytime movie.

In the story as it is, the attacker was high, he was fed up with the MC, he wanted to move on, and he was a brutal, vicious person anyway.  He just screamed at him, jerked him around by the arm and lit into him.  Threw him through a window, and then ran outside to stomp on him some more.

Later, it is found out that the attacker didn't just exploit the MC, either.  Like many of these people in real life, he victimized many people.

And later in the story (this was in the story before I sent it to the editor), the female who was complicit in the abuse, finds the MC and tries to murder him, later claiming to the police that her partner 'threatened' her with harm if she didn't.  She also claims she was merely trying to 'scare' them but the police point out that she shot a gun at a chair she believed to be occupied by the MC or someone trying to help him.

I have some experience with such people.  They attack directly, swiftly and terribly.  He's not going to pussyfoot around.

And I can certainly make their nature clearer.  But I believe that the changes recommended aren't good for the story.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: Lin on February 22, 2017, 12:50:54 PM
I do mentoring for new writers.  If you would like a good example of what an editor does you can send me your first couple of pages, and I would be happy to show you how the track changes work and help to send you on your way.  If you want further information send me a PM there is no charge for helping to sort you out.  I only charge for chapters and full ms. I am not an editor, but I can show you what is expected of you. All this is confidential.

Good luck

Lin

Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on February 22, 2017, 07:08:21 PM
thanks that is so kind!  I did get someone else who showed me how to work with the track changes and at this point, I'm doing some changes (as noted above) and looking for a publisher.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: Lin on February 23, 2017, 06:34:29 AM
I'm happy to give you feedback before you send it.  Two heads are better than one.

Lin
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on March 03, 2017, 06:13:14 PM
My friend called back to say he was not able to do a good job because of past trauma.  He gave me one criticism from the previous session, a new criticism, and said those are the only two valid criticisms/things I need to change.  He said I was not in need of much of any traditional copy editing.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: hillwalker3000 on March 03, 2017, 06:19:24 PM
And you believed him? Based on his past efforts, his advice is probably worthless.

H3K
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on March 03, 2017, 09:02:29 PM
And you believed him? Based on his past efforts, his advice is probably worthless.

H3K

Who said anything about believing him?  I certainly didn't.  


I do believe that I'm not in much need of 'garden variety copy editing'.  Several people now have read the whole thing for proof reading(one, my husband is a very good proof reader, or at least he so claims), and in 500 pages(at least it's 500 pages the way I have it formatted, I don't think it will be when actually printed or epub'd), have not found more than a few typos or other similar errors.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on March 05, 2017, 07:19:58 AM
One of the things I've done to clean up typos and mis-wordings is read it aloud over and over.  Yeah.  The whole thing. 
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: Lin on March 05, 2017, 09:36:19 AM
I saw you told us earlier this was a' LONG BOOK.'  Is this your first novel?  If so, watch out for word count. Publishers are rather strict about first novels and the number of words.  Just thought I would mention it.

Lin
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on March 05, 2017, 10:47:23 AM
What word count should I have then?

Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: Artemis Quark on March 05, 2017, 01:20:51 PM
You might find this article useful as a guide.

http://www.writersdigest.com/editor-blogs/guide-to-literary-agents/word-count-for-novels-and-childrens-books-the-definitive-post

In short:
80,000 89,999:       Totally cool
90,000 99,999:       Generally safe
70,000 79,999:       Might be too short; probably all right
100,000 109,999:    Might be too long; probably all right
Below 70,000:           Too short
110,000 or above       Too long

In my personal case, I find it difficult to write a story longer than ~40,000 words. Sometimes even less. I consider them novellas. From a self-pub perspective, it seems that less is more when considering return on invested time. Shorter books cost less to print (more profit for the author) although it hardly matters with the preponderance of ebooks nowadays. Also consider audience behavior and preference. ADD-sufferers and multitaskers will more likely read your story if they can do so in a day or two, nay, in a few hours.

Short answer: it depends.... :o JMO

AQ
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: Jo Bannister on March 06, 2017, 04:02:55 AM
My publishers (crime/thriller) seem happiest in the 75-85,000 word bracket.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: Lin on March 06, 2017, 05:21:23 AM
I try to write a 95-100K novel but in the early stages, first draft, I make it 85K words so that I can add in descriptions where I missed an opportunity to expand on dialogue or story. In that respect, I don't go over the limit. If you are a star like Penny Vincenti, then you are probably looking at a 200K novel. This is only because she is well known and the publisher knows she will sell. It's all about sales and quality of the story. On this last book I have written, it was hard to find an ending, then after reading it through, I discovered I could end it there and then, there was no more story to tell. I am now up to 88k words. I will probably do a sequel next, but the point is that you can keep writing and there isn't really any more story left.

Be prepared to cut out whole chapters! What you think is wonderful, you might have to 'kill your darlings' half way through. Your publisher/editor will guide you. I know this is often heartbreaking for the new writer, but it's something we all have to learn.  If the story isn't moving forward, you may have to delete.

Anyway whatever stage you are at, I wish you luck.    :)

Lin
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on March 11, 2017, 10:04:58 PM
My publishers (crime/thriller) seem happiest in the 75-85,000 word bracket.

Ok, that seems typical for that type of book. 
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on March 19, 2017, 05:19:01 PM
I met a literary agent last night and she has offered to help me find someone to handle the book. 

A friend, another editor, read some of it and suggested I get Ann Tyler's agent.

I'm like, yeah, sure, how about we start a LITTLE lower on the totem pole first.  LOL   
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: Lin on March 19, 2017, 06:54:22 PM
Yes, I agree with you, get your work in order first before you go seeking out an agent or publisher.  Just think what might happen if they ask for more and it isn't finished?  You might go rushing it and then it's not up to standard after all and gets rejected.  It happens!

With all new writers, all they want to do is submit to a publisher.  You have to make sure your book is the best it can ever be before you do this.  99.9% perfect. Don't take any more risks.  Remember the cheapest isn't always the best! I think the editor I recommended is willing to assist you with payments - ask her.

Lin x
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: Gyppo on March 19, 2017, 07:05:51 PM
On the other hand, if your book is complete, and you're happy with it...  There's a thin line between caution and procrastination.

You never know until you ask.

Back in the last century the lady who typed up the submission copy from my rough two finger typed script put me in touch with one of the UK's leading agents. He liked my book but was unwilling to chance his own reputation, as opposed to the reputation of his firm.  So he passed me on to the 'new girl'.  She, being a lean and hungry new agent, worked her arse off and found me a publisher, Robert Hale.

She didn't like my second book, so we parted amicably enough.  She is now highly respected with her own stable of 'names'.

I then wandered off to write shorts, articles, and won regular columns in a few magazines over the next couple of decades.

So you never know until you ask.

Gyppo
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on March 19, 2017, 07:31:43 PM
Yes, I agree with you, get your work in order first before you go seeking out an agent or publisher.  Just think what might happen if they ask for more and it isn't finished?  You might go rushing it and then it's not up to standard after all and gets rejected.  It happens!

With all new writers, all they want to do is submit to a publisher.  You have to make sure your book is the best it can ever be before you do this.  99.9% perfect. Don't take any more risks.  Remember the cheapest isn't always the best! I think the editor I recommended is willing to assist you with payments - ask her.

Lin x

I've had a couple people read it now (it is done, I'm just fixing some of the dialogue he-said-she-saids to trim some of those out, and have to name a couple more chapters).

Nobody so far seems to think it needs an editor going over it.  Just get an agent.

I spent about 4 months reading it out loud, finding small errors, and my husband has proof read it all the way through a couple times.  It's clean.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: Lin on March 20, 2017, 05:19:18 AM
Agents are not easy to flush out these days.  Many of them actually don't reply to your requests. You have to read their website thoroughly. I prefer to find a publisher that will not have to go through an agent, but it's not for the want of trying and I will keep on doing so, but remember you have to pay the agent fees.  I would rather make profits on my own books and let a publisher do the rest.  So far it's doing okay.

My own plan is to have a number of books out there and allow 'nature to take its course'.  See what crops up with time.  Of course, there is a lot I can do for myself.  I think you have to ask what you want out of all this and go for it. I think having learned now what not to do, you are on the right track. Best get a couple of people to read it, after all beta readers are your future customers.

Good luck,

Lin  ;)  
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on March 29, 2017, 10:53:57 AM
What's the advantage of having an agent?

Agents get a percentage, I understand, and that's a 'down side', I suppose, but is a decent agent more likely to get a book to a publisher who will accept it and do a good job of marketing it, than say, a new author who doesn't know the business well?

Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: hillwalker3000 on March 29, 2017, 11:18:39 AM
The agent will hawk your book around prospective publishers if he feels it's got potential to make him/them money. There's no guarantee he'll succeed in getting you a deal. He has a reputation to protect so he's going to be ultra-careful with what he's trying to push. He'll also check through your contract before you sign it. But he won't be directly involved with how the publisher promotes or markets the book. That's not what he's paid for. He'll be interested in sales because his cut will depend on your earnings, but the success or failure of the book once it's published is as much down to you as the publisher. Publication doesn't necessarily mean success. In my own experience, I make more in a week from the 6 books I've self-published than in a year from the 2 published by established publishers. Luckily, I don't have an agent.  ;)

H3K
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: Jo Bannister on March 30, 2017, 03:54:58 AM
On the other hand, I feel lucky that I do have an agent.  I don't know enough about the business - as distinct from the creative process - to round up all the domestic and foreign deals my agent has negotiated over the years.  It's also a huge help when you're physically remote from the inner circle where contacts are made and maintained.  And frankly, I'd rather be writing than selling.  Couple that with the fact that 15% of nothing is nothing, and I'm firmly on the "get a good agent if you can" side.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: Lin on March 30, 2017, 07:06:54 AM
When I go into town and see all my writer friends in the RNA with their books in Waitrose it feels good to know they have been successful and I hope to be up there one day with them. Some of them have agents, most are just published with Avon books, Choc-Lit or some other publisher.  These days the best publishers are very good at selling books.  You have to do your homework and not submit to just anyone who happens to be open to submissions.  If you think your book is tip top, then don't pull yourself down, submit to the best and then hope for the best.  Pegasus, Harper Collins, - yeah why not?  It's the only way to see your books on the shelves in supermarkets and bookshops.  The top publishers always win through in this direction.  Go for it, but it has to have gone through many hands before you try.  Beta Readers, editors and don't rely on close relatives and friends, they will not see the mistakes or feel they are hurting you by commenting, no matter how much you think they are being truthful. Work smart and be ultra professional.  Read everything that's required and show through your query letter that you know all about the company where you are submitting.

Be the best you can ever be. Don't rush submission, but be positive about doing so. The writer who complains that they are always being rejected often doesn't accept that they need to do better and learn more.  The novel industry is extremely competitive. Finding the right agent or publisher might take a long time on the other hand if you've got something that shrieks 'I want this' then you're in. 

Lin  :D



 
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: lamont cranston on April 01, 2017, 12:48:18 PM
Very helpful, thanks.
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: Annmarie on April 03, 2017, 03:15:29 AM
What's the advantage of having an agent?

So far, the advantage for me is that my agent is an amazing developmental and line editor. I have two books in various stages of editing. The first one -- the one that hooked my agent -- has been my "learning" book, I suppose, the one where my agent points out every single flaw in everything from structure right down to how I use articles. She's not at all like what many people say about agents. She's not in it for the quick buck, or only to sell, though that's the ultimate goal. She's an ex-house editor who expects excellence, and she's extremely patient and supportive. Right from the beginning, we both knew me and my book have a lot of potential, but it'll take a ton of work to gain the skills I need to make the book what it could be. Obviously she thinks it's worth it or she wouldn't have read it multiple times, with multiple meetings and many many long editorial emails. In the end, a book has to be sold to justify all this work, but at the moment, the focus is on getting the book the best it can be. She has some successful authors on her list, and I think I'm benefiting from that. She can carry a new author who needs more guidance and doesn't pay off right away.

Anybody who wants an agent should know that the process is likely to run slower, maybe a lot slower, than expected. It's the nature of the trad pub business. Most of the time, I don't mind this. If I was older, I probably would. So it's really up to how you as an author like to work, and how patient you are, and how willing you are to listen to very tough -- and sometimes heartbreaking! -- constructive criticism. I'm willing to do all this because I suppose I'm a craftswoman at heart. I want to be a better writer, and I see how my skills have taken a huge leap forward under my agent. The financial stuff matters too, though, and of course I hope all this hard work will pay off down the road. But for now, I'm enjoying (and tearing my hair out over) this free education I'm getting in the craft and the business. 
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: Jo Bannister on April 03, 2017, 03:39:23 AM
You sound to have an excellent relationship with your editor, Annmarie.  There's no doubt she'll have earned her cut when the royalties start coming in. 
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: Annmarie on April 03, 2017, 04:49:18 AM
Thanks, Jo. That's what keeps me going.

But does the work have to be this hard?  :D
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: Lin on April 03, 2017, 05:07:06 AM
I am getting on, so the agent path may be a case of lost time for me although I will still try.

Lin x
Title: Re: I'm not sure what just happened, but I think I got ripped off (Paid Editor)
Post by: hillwalker3000 on April 03, 2017, 05:11:53 AM
I'm the same. Publishers seem to inhabit their own time dimension where everything happens excruciatingly slowly.  ;D

H3K