My Writers Circle

Writing => The Writers Circle => Topic started by: Nick on September 23, 2014, 05:45:41 AM

Title: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Nick on September 23, 2014, 05:45:41 AM
Prize Flash Fiction Contest

We’ve decided it’s high time to hold another prize flash fiction contest here on myWritersCircle.

To enter, you have to submit a story of exactly 100 words, including three specified words - jade, conduit, effervescent. In addition, you should give your story a title of up to 15 words. The words in the title will not count towards the 100 words in the story. A maximum of two stories may be submitted per author.

The winners will be chosen by novelist, illustrator and long-time MWC member Patrick Fox (best known on the forum as Foxy). I have included a short biography of Patrick (in his own words) below...

"I was born and brought up in Coventry in England. I now live in south Wales with my wife. Our children have both grown up and flown the nest, but they still continue to make us proud. I worked in the computer games industry for over twenty years as an artist and games designer. My debut novel draws on my experience of the industry. I now work as a graphic artist/illustrator, and some of my work can been seen on the covers of various books available on Amazon. In my spare time, I'm a keen amateur detective, and can often be found searching for clues in the local bars and pubs."

You can read Patrick’s blog here (http://oneloosecannon.wordpress.com), and see samples of his artwork here (http://patrickfox.crevado.com). Here is a universal link to his novel Trinity on Amazon (http://geni.us/pKV).

Patrick will select the winners from a shortlist selected by MWC moderators Mairi (Ma100), Dawn, and Jeanette (Distant Sun). The closing date to enter is Friday 10 October at 10 am EDT / 3 pm BST.

The contest is free to enter, and the first-prize winner will receive a copy of the CD-based course Write Any Book in Under 28 Days (http://partners.selfdevelopment.net/ref/6785/3d05bdb3), also known as the Nick Daws Course. The second prize will be a copy of the downloadable course Blogging for Writers (http://partners.selfdevelopment.net/ref/6785/f6465d40), while the third prize winner will receive a copy of Essential English for Authors (http://partners.selfdevelopment.net/ref/6785/8da375d8). All shortlisted authors will receive a $10 discount voucher that can used against the price of any WCCL course or product. We are grateful to our forum sponsors (and owners) The WCCL Network for donating the prizes.

The judges will be looking for a complete story with a beginning, middle and an end, which follows all the contest rules. It should incorporate the three words mentioned above in as natural a way as possible. The three words should not stand out from the rest of the story. Please do not capitalize them or do anything else to draw attention to them, therefore.

How To Enter - Please Read Carefully!

Submit your entry by PM (Personal Message) to moderator Laura H, who will forward all entries anonymously to the short-listing judges. You can send Laura a PM by clicking here to go to her profile page (http://mywriterscircle.com/index.php?action=profile;u=33952) and clicking on the link 'Send this member a personal message' near the bottom.

Use the subject line Prize Flash Fiction Contest and please avoid including your name or any other identifying information in your entry. You will, of course, need to be a registered member of the forum and logged in to be able to enter. It is very easy (and free) to join if you haven't already. Just click on Register near the top of the forum homepage  (http://www.mywriterscircle.com)and follow the on-screen instructions.

Please do NOT post your story as a reply here. If you do this, it will have to be disqualified as we will not be able to judge it anonymously. On the other hand, if you have any queries, please post them as replies below, and either I or another moderator will do our best to answer them. It is best not to send queries by PM, as there may be a delay in getting them answered.

We will post the results of the contest here as soon as possible once it has been judged. The winning entries will be posted on the forum and on my blog (http://www.mywritingblog.com) and also possibly in Trent Steele's writing newsletter (which is sent by email to MWC members by our sponsors). It is a condition of entering that you accept this. All contestants will (of course) retain copyright in their stories.

Good luck, and have fun!

Nick  :D
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Dawn on September 23, 2014, 05:52:57 AM
Come on everyone. Great way to hone your skills for Nano.
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Laura H on September 23, 2014, 07:04:08 AM
Can't wait to read some fantastic entries. Pencils up  :D
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: JewelAS53 on September 23, 2014, 07:22:34 AM
Right you are, you lot.

Get those pencils sharpened, those minds honed.
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Laura H on September 23, 2014, 08:38:57 AM
And read the information Nick has posted. Do not post your entries here. PM them to me  ;)
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: heidi52 on September 23, 2014, 11:12:21 AM
Blimey 100 words! And three of them already taken!   :o

Good challenge, every word will have to count.

At some point will we get to read all of the submissions or only those of the winners?
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Nick on September 23, 2014, 11:31:03 AM
We will publish all entries received (anonymously) in a document that anyone is welcome to download.
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: heidi52 on September 23, 2014, 12:31:29 PM
We will publish all entries received (anonymously) in a document that anyone is welcome to download.

Cool, look forward to reading them.  :)
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Nick on September 23, 2014, 12:57:06 PM
I have just made a small addition to the rules:

Quote
In addition, you should give your story a title of up to 15 words. The words in the title will not count towards the 100 words in the story.

Apologies that this information was omitted initially. If you have already submitted an entry without a title, feel free to resubmit to Laura with a title as well. Otherwise we will accept your story without a title, but all stories submitted from now on should have a title as well.
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Pale Writer on September 23, 2014, 01:03:31 PM
:)
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Rho on September 23, 2014, 02:17:16 PM
Done one, but not submitting until I edited it fifty times.
Rough draft, and it came to 100 words which I wasn't expecting.
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: lan on September 26, 2014, 12:41:35 AM
Roger that.
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Laura H on September 26, 2014, 08:39:14 AM
Writers,

Be sure to include a title for your entry. It doesn't go toward your word count, but it is required.  ;)
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Dawn on September 26, 2014, 09:25:06 AM
Lots of lovely entries coming in. Come on, writers, great way to practice and warm your fingers for Nano.
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Soul Writes on September 26, 2014, 03:59:45 PM
Just realised why I missed this originally. I became a granddad that day  ;D
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Dawn on September 26, 2014, 04:04:49 PM
Yay congrats, Soul. x
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Soul Writes on September 26, 2014, 04:07:53 PM
Yay congrats, Soul. x

Thanks!
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Soul Writes on September 26, 2014, 04:13:25 PM
A question.

The requirement "complete story with a beginning, middle and an end". Does this simply mean the obvious, or is there something more formal I'm unaware of, in terms of layout, content, whatever? Or is it simply saying the story must read as a complete short work, with no essentials omitted to try and keep the word count down?
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: DistantSun on September 26, 2014, 04:39:09 PM
A question.

The requirement "complete story with a beginning, middle and an end". Does this simply mean the obvious, or is there something more formal I'm unaware of, in terms of layout, content, whatever? Or is it simply saying the story must read as a complete short work, with no essentials omitted to try and keep the word count down?


You got it :) Two weeks left to write an entry Grandpa :D
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Soul Writes on September 26, 2014, 04:46:41 PM
You got it :) Two weeks left to write an entry Grandpa :D

 ;D ;D ;D Thanks.

Edit: Ooh look, my post count is a magic number.
Edit2: Was 365 at the time.
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Laura H on September 26, 2014, 06:09:09 PM
We've received many great entries already, and there's still plenty of time to write, polish and submit  ;)

Please read the rules carefully, though.  http://mywriterscircle.com/index.php?topic=55121.msg1018476#msg1018476

The main issues so far have been pieces submitted without the required title - which doesn't go against your word count - and not adhering to the exact 100 word count.
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Soul Writes on September 26, 2014, 06:31:23 PM
Re word count. Are there any situations where what counts as a word is ambiguous? e.g. the number 50,000. Or mother-in-law. Or other things I've not thought of? If so, is there a definitive means of evaluation? e.g. the word count as provided in MS Word? Should we state how we arrived at the word count?
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Laura H on September 26, 2014, 06:34:21 PM
Please use MS word, Soul Writes. We do find that count varies depending upon the tool. As you say, some count hyphenated words as one, others don't.

Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Rho on September 26, 2014, 06:46:13 PM
I had an idea for a post in Writing Games & Challenges, based on this. It would be for practice purposes.

It would have three different words, and after a while someone else puts three different words.

Your thoughts.
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Inseriousity. on September 26, 2014, 06:47:42 PM
is it cheating to use Jade as a person hehe
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Soul Writes on September 26, 2014, 07:02:03 PM
Or what about something along the lines of:-

As he slowly recovered consciousness, his battered brain struggled to recall how she had described him. "J ... jade ... jaded!" That was it.
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Laura H on September 26, 2014, 07:30:37 PM
Rho, sounds like fun. Why not?

Inseriousity, you can use "Jade" however you like in your entry - person, place, thing  ;)

Soul, write it up and turn it in  :D
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: JanieWrites on September 27, 2014, 01:37:44 PM
I just submitted my story --- and am thinking about doing another one! What fun!  ;D
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Laura H on September 27, 2014, 02:02:59 PM
Glad you had fun with it, JanieWrites  :D
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: lan on September 27, 2014, 05:23:36 PM
Looks like Open Office counts opening inverted commas as an extra word.  Wordcountertool.com returns 100.
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Soul Writes on September 27, 2014, 05:30:09 PM
Looks like Open Office counts opening inverted commas as an extra word.  Wordcountertool.com returns 100.

As the word count requirement is precise, maybe some means needed ensure to people who have adhered to the word count with the tools they have available, don't get unfairly penalised if it differs from what the judges' toolset indicates? (Long complex sentence, sorry). Or can we assume everyone has access to MS Word? (I'm guessing folks using Open Office very possibly won't).
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Soul Writes on September 27, 2014, 05:34:21 PM
Another question re the beginning/middle/end requirement.

Does this mean the story must be all neatly and comfortably packaged as a happy-ever-after story? Or is it still OK to leave a question hanging for the reader to ponder, provided the question is not so much a loose end, but rather a means to highlight some point of the story?
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Inseriousity. on September 27, 2014, 05:57:17 PM
I entered, was really hard sticking to 100 words haha
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Laura H on September 27, 2014, 07:00:21 PM
Soul Writes - if need be, the top stories will have word count checked manually ( 1, 2, 3  :P), and as far as beginning, middle end- we just want you to tell a story in 100 words. Easy peasy, right?

Nope.

As Inseriosity said, that 's the tough part. Exactly 100 words, and tell us a tale. Yes, you can leave the end hanging. Plenty of full length novels do. But we should feel like we had a mini-journey at the end of those 100 words.

Tell us a story  ;)
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Soul Writes on September 28, 2014, 05:46:45 AM
But we should feel like we had a mini-journey at the end of those 100 words.

Got it  :)
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: belton1a on September 28, 2014, 07:59:34 PM
Hello!  I am seeing and reading all about the new Flash Fiction contest, but where do you enter it?  I can find no link.  Is it just a post to the forum??  Thanks...a rookie mystery to submit a short fiction...nice mix.
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Laura H on September 28, 2014, 08:05:04 PM
belton1a,

All entries should be sent to me via personal message. To send me your submissions, click on my name. You'll see it to the left of my post, just under my bat girl photo. My profile will pop up, and if you'll just scroll down, you'll see the option to "send this member a personal message". Click that option, and copy and paste your entry into the body of the email and indicate "Flash Fiction Contest" in the subject line.

Be sure to include a title. Your story itself should be exactly 100 words.

Once received, I forward all entries to our judges for consideration.

Do not post entries on the boards as this automatically disqualifies your piece.  :o

Hope this helps  ;)
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Laura H on September 29, 2014, 05:53:49 PM
Prize Flash Fiction Contest

We’ve decided it’s high time to hold another prize flash fiction contest here on myWritersCircle.

To enter, you have to submit a story of exactly 100 words, including three specified words - jade, conduit, effervescent. In addition, you should give your story a title of up to 15 words. The words in the title will not count towards the 100 words in the story. A maximum of two stories may be submitted per author.

The winners will be chosen by novelist, illustrator and long-time MWC member Patrick Fox (best known on the forum as Foxy). I have included a short biography of Patrick (in his own words) below...

"I was born and brought up in Coventry in England. I now live in south Wales with my wife. Our children have both grown up and flown the nest, but they still continue to make us proud. I worked in the computer games industry for over twenty years as an artist and games designer. My debut novel draws on my experience of the industry. I now work as a graphic artist/illustrator, and some of my work can been seen on the covers of various books available on Amazon. In my spare time, I'm a keen amateur detective, and can often be found searching for clues in the local bars and pubs."

You can read Patrick’s blog here (http://oneloosecannon.wordpress.com), and see samples of his artwork here (http://patrickfox.crevado.com). Here is a universal link to his novel Trinity on Amazon (http://geni.us/pKV).

Patrick will select the winners from a shortlist selected by MWC moderators Mairi (Ma100), Dawn, and Jeanette (Distant Sun). The closing date to enter is Friday 10 October at 10 am EDT / 3 pm BST.

The contest is free to enter, and the first-prize winner will receive a copy of the CD-based course Write Any Book in Under 28 Days (http://partners.selfdevelopment.net/ref/6785/3d05bdb3), also known as the Nick Daws Course. The second prize will be a copy of the downloadable course Blogging for Writers (http://partners.selfdevelopment.net/ref/6785/f6465d40), while the third prize winner will receive a copy of Essential English for Authors (http://partners.selfdevelopment.net/ref/6785/8da375d8). All shortlisted authors will receive a $10 discount voucher that can used against the price of any WCCL course or product. We are grateful to our forum sponsors (and owners) The WCCL Network for donating the prizes.

The judges will be looking for a complete story with a beginning, middle and an end, which follows all the contest rules. It should incorporate the three words mentioned above in as natural a way as possible. The three words should not stand out from the rest of the story. Please do not capitalize them or do anything else to draw attention to them, therefore.

How To Enter - Please Read Carefully!

Submit your entry by PM (Personal Message) to moderator Laura H, who will forward all entries anonymously to the short-listing judges. You can send Laura a PM by clicking here to go to her profile page (http://mywriterscircle.com/index.php?action=profile;u=33952) and clicking on the link 'Send this member a personal message' near the bottom.

Use the subject line Prize Flash Fiction Contest and please avoid including your name or any other identifying information in your entry. You will, of course, need to be a registered member of the forum and logged in to be able to enter. It is very easy (and free) to join if you haven't already. Just click on Register near the top of the forum homepage  (http://www.mywriterscircle.com)and follow the on-screen instructions.

Please do NOT post your story as a reply here. If you do this, it will have to be disqualified as we will not be able to judge it anonymously. On the other hand, if you have any queries, please post them as replies below, and either I or another moderator will do our best to answer them. It is best not to send queries by PM, as there may be a delay in getting them answered.

We will post the results of the contest here as soon as possible once it has been judged. The winning entries will be posted on the forum and on my blog (http://www.mywritingblog.com) and also possibly in Trent Steele's writing newsletter (which is sent by email to MWC members by our sponsors). It is a condition of entering that you accept this. All contestants will (of course) retain copyright in their stories.

Good luck, and have fun!

Nick  :D

Just reminding everyone to read Nick's original post with the rules for the contest. We've had a great response, and some fantastic entries. Keep them coming  :)
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Soul Writes on October 01, 2014, 04:17:34 PM
Am I right in thinking it doesn't matter if any of the three words appear more than once? That's how I interpret the rules, but it could be slightly ambiguous.
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: lan on October 01, 2014, 04:56:49 PM
That's the way I intepreted it too, although there's only so much room for repetition in 100 words.

Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Soul Writes on October 01, 2014, 05:13:27 PM
Amazingly, I need to!
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Inseriousity. on October 01, 2014, 05:46:43 PM
I struggled to fit them in once haha, so much editing. now you're just showing off :P
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Soul Writes on October 01, 2014, 06:05:36 PM
There were a couple of times I got down to 99! The sheer luxury of being able to reinstate a word I'd ruthlessly cut  :o ;D

My first stab was 190, which brought me up a bit sharp. But it really does show how much you can cut and still have a story.
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: KarenKeen on October 01, 2014, 06:09:02 PM
Oh my word!! 100 words!! Sounds easy enough but it's near impossible! I guess I waffle too much! lol good luck everyone!
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Laura H on October 01, 2014, 06:34:44 PM
Am I right in thinking it doesn't matter if any of the three words appear more than once? That's how I interpret the rules, but it could be slightly ambiguous.

There is no rule against repetition of the required words.

And exact word counts are difficult, aren't they? They make you realize the importance of every single word you choose.
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: heidi52 on October 03, 2014, 12:13:02 PM
Help

On the 100 word practice thread Soul Writer pointed out that he had made a mistake in his entry and used the word conduits instead of the singular conduit. He caught it in time.

Guess who did the same thing? Is using the plural a dis-qualifier, and if so, can I change my entry after it's been submitted?

And I call myself a reader.  ::)
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Pale Writer on October 03, 2014, 12:33:36 PM
If Leaders were perfect, they wouldn't be leaders. :)

See, there, I just read your 'read' as 'lead' :P  So I'm in the same boat.

*shares popcorn*
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: sara on October 05, 2014, 06:14:46 AM
I've submitted mine  ;D

I just put it in the body of the message, I hope this is ok?

Sara
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Nick on October 05, 2014, 06:18:57 AM
In the body of the message is fine.

Re. Heidi's query, the words must be used exactly as specified, so plurals would not be permitted. If you want to change your entry and resubmit, PM the revised version to Laura. Hopefully she will be in a good mood and allow this  ;)
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: heidi52 on October 05, 2014, 06:28:05 AM
Thank you Nick for the clarification. I resubmitted, hopfully Laura is in a good mood.
If not I may have to bribe her...

 ;D
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: lwillis1 on October 08, 2014, 04:28:03 AM
How do you know if your submission was successful? I had a bit of trouble with copying the letters I saw in that box. Ashamed to say it took me four tries.
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Laura H on October 08, 2014, 06:53:53 AM
Every entrant will receive confirmation of receipt by pm. If anyone has sent an entry and not heard back let me know so I can confirm that it is safely tucked away for judging.

Having said that, remember that we're an international bunch. Your waking hours may not be my waking hours, so confirmation may not be immediate.  ;)
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Pale Writer on October 08, 2014, 06:59:11 AM
What? You don't stay awake for the duration of the contest? Shame :P
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: heidi52 on October 08, 2014, 08:09:28 AM
What? You don't stay awake for the duration of the contest? Shame :P

Shocking! I didn't think the mods were allowed to sleep

EVER!
 ;D ;D
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Laura H on October 08, 2014, 08:32:19 AM
I didn't say anything about sleep. I do have to plug into the generator, though. Otherwise I get cranky.
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: heidi52 on October 08, 2014, 03:19:06 PM
Well thanks for clearing that up, I was beginning to worry.  :D :D
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: lwillis1 on October 08, 2014, 05:31:32 PM
Thank you for the prompt clarification.
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Laura H on October 08, 2014, 06:05:30 PM
Just two more days to enter the Prize Flash Fiction contest.

Remember to observe the 100 word count, and title your entry.

Last call!
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: CasMaria on October 09, 2014, 12:44:21 PM
I am trying to upload my short story to the fiction contest how do I go about doing so
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: DistantSun on October 09, 2014, 12:51:14 PM
CasMaria - just include it in a pm to LauraH. Don't forget to add your title too :)
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: CasMaria on October 09, 2014, 12:58:48 PM
thank you :)
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Nick on October 10, 2014, 08:06:40 AM
Under two hours left to enter now!
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Pale Writer on October 10, 2014, 08:50:56 AM
Thanks to all who hosted/helped/participated.
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Laura H on October 10, 2014, 08:50:56 AM
I have several entries still on hold until titles are assigned as required by the rules. I've pm'd those entrants. Please get back to me with your titles, folks  :-*
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Laura H on October 10, 2014, 10:10:06 AM
"The closing date to enter is Friday 10 October at 10 am EDT / 3 pm BST."



Okay, anyone who still lacks a title has 24 hours to get one to me  ;)
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: MiggsEye on October 12, 2014, 09:41:22 PM
Any update on the contest?
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: DistantSun on October 12, 2014, 10:42:19 PM
Hang on for a little while - Nick will announce the winner when he's heard back from the judges, don't worry :)
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: MiggsEye on October 12, 2014, 11:48:50 PM
Hang on for a little while - Nick will announce the winner when he's heard back from the judges, don't worry :)

No worries. Just wondering.

Thanks Distant Sun.
Title: Re: Sticky: Prize Flash Fiction Contest
Post by: Laura H on October 16, 2014, 05:42:28 PM
The first round short list has been posted-

http://mywriterscircle.com/index.php?topic=55372.0