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Workshop => Review My Work => Topic started by: bri h on February 22, 2013, 06:33:53 PM

Title: Been There Done That. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.#105, 549 words.
Post by: bri h on February 22, 2013, 06:33:53 PM
This is a work of fiction based on a fact. The conversation did take place, however the kiss did not. I just wanted to create something new for a change and Gyp's answer to a post reminded me of a chat I'd had with a lovely gay man I had back in the 70's. So i did this and posted it in the Bar. i felt that because I wanted it critted, The bar wasn't the place to put it, so I took it out and created more here. Thanks, Bri.

Been There, Done That

I was a Night-Club bouncer in my early twenties. I had women falling for me regularly. This isn't a boast. I think the idea of going out with a bouncer may have been the main attraction, or they got in the Night-club without paying. Either way, it seemed to be girl-heaven for me. But I digress. One night a gorgeous feller came in, and later in the night we got talking. He was a foreign exchange student from . . . one of the colonies, I think? He had a beautiful toned athletic body, with curly tousled blond hair and a great personality. He dressed casually but I could see by the way he comported himself that he'd thought about his dress sense and everything he had on probably felt right for him. He'd had an interesting life, but he wasn't a blow-hard as most of the guys were in those days. He'd engaged my interest by being funny. This always attracted me to girls back then.

Not for me the blonde bombshell with the big boobies or the nice backside. It always had to be about the humour or just a good personality and the ability to talk. Hell, it still did.

I could tell from his mannerisms and his affect that he was probably gay. The longing looks, sipping his drink rather than gulping it down like a drowning man trying to swallow an ocean. Checking out the fellers as they passed. An arched eyebrow delivering an internal verdict. So I asked him? In those days of finding out things about life and different tastes, I was curious about everything. But never judgemental. I felt pretty sure of his answer anyway.
As the night wore on we were chatting every time I passed by on my rounds in the club. On my break I sat with him in one of the dark cubicles, screened off from the rest of the patrons. It amazed me sometimes the goings-on in those cubicles, All the Bouncers had to break couples apart at odd times in the night, and turn a hose on some of them, the inter-action was that hot. I knew we had privacy of a sort for at most ten minutes before another Bouncer would get suspicious. So feeling adventurous, I asked him, and he confirmed my suspicions. I floored him when i then asked if I could kiss him, just in the interests of curiosity? I felt this was my life and I'd do what I damn well pleased. I could see him weighing up the question. The confusion he felt must have been tremendous, it seemed that way as his eyes darted to the entrance of the booth as if expecting to see the rest of the guys standing there ready to pounce on him, or maybe just to see if he could get out quickly, if he needed to. Was I joking maybe, so if he said yes he'd be thrown out of the club? Or worse?

I must admit, it was different, but he kissed brilliantly. He wasn't a "bugler" I'm sure girls know what I mean by this? He was just as nervous as me, but for different reasons. He may have thought I was winding him up? Setting himself up for a kicking! It did happen in those days. The kicking, not the experimental-kissing. So I suspected why he felt nervous. We were sitting opposite each other in the booth, but leaning over, as we slowly closed the gap between us. He looked at me as if it could be a challenge, but still inching ever closer. The tension felt palpable now, but I enjoyed the whole thing so there'd be no way I'd back down now. Finally, our lips met.
At first just a tentative gentle whisper of a touch. Then more firmly.

We kissed like this for about 10 seconds, then I felt the tip of his tongue exploring, probing the outside of my lips. At first I was shocked, I wasn't expecting things to go this far. I thought we'd embarrassedly pull away, laughing and have another drink. Thinking to myself, "in for a penny" and throwing any hesitation out the door, I parted my lips to let his tongue enter my mouth. It slid gently inside, I still had my lips pursed as if about to whistle, but gradually as I gained more confidence I parted them fully. His tongue tasted sweet. A total surprise. It tasted of sweet alcoholic sugar, but with a hint of minty-ness. It did feel funny to me, like kissing your sister or your auntie. Nice, but strange and definately no tongue! I remember feeling amused because he kissed me as if I were his date. He'd laid his palm gently on the side of my cheek, caressing me as we kissed.

His other hand grasped the back of my head pulling me further into his embrace. After about a minute of this, his breathing became very heavy. He'd clearly been turned on. This is the point I realised I wasn't gay, because I didn't! I did close my eyes for the briefest moment, but I never felt the need to lift one leg up like Doris Day when she got kissed by one of the leading men in her movies. To me it simply felt like something I had to do. I did it in my early teens with a girl, who was I to deny Gay people a chance to experience me? But it wasn't to be, I'm afraid. I was strictly a Ladies-Man. I started to kiss girls like this myself later because it felt better that way. So i suppose he did tutor me in his own small way. I never had any complaints when kissing from then on.
 Cheers. Bri.
Title: Re: Been There Done That
Post by: Dawn on February 22, 2013, 06:40:37 PM
Okay, Brian, In order to save you from the deafening silence you may endure, may I advise you take out all the !!!!!!!

respec
Dawn ;)
Title: Re: Been There Done That
Post by: bri h on February 22, 2013, 06:52:40 PM
Sorry Dawn, I set myself the goal to do em but forgot in the rush to get it out of the bar before anyone noticed. Doin em now. Thanks chuck. x P.S. What's the weather like on the West side? Snowin here, wasn't even forecast. b
Title: Re: Been There Done That
Post by: 510bhan on February 22, 2013, 06:59:12 PM
It's a recount of a particular meeting and as such is all tell and much of it is passive rather than active. It also comes across as pretty homophobic/defensive in the close.

You've dismissed the thing that attracted the mc to this man in the first place when I feel it could do with more detail . . .  what were the travels? the funny things? his interesting life so far? How did that compare to the bouncer's experience of life?

Also, if this is a period piece -- would 'gay' have been used, wouldn't the man have been referred to as a poof or a queer or a fruit?

So I asked him? [this is a statement not a question]
So feeling adventurous, I asked him if I could kiss him, full-on, just in the interests of curiosity, you understand? [same here]

Also -- did you mean to end your writing with: Cheers. Bri.?
Title: Re: Been There Done That
Post by: hillwalker3000 on February 22, 2013, 07:02:11 PM
Since I don't hang around virtual bars - only real ones - I'm coming to this with no preconceptions:

I was a Night-Club bouncer in my early twenties. I had women falling for me regularly. This isn't a boast. I think it was the idea of going out with a bouncer the main attraction, or they got in the Night-club without paying. Either way, it seemed to be girl-heaven for me! But I digress.

Indeed you do - so why are you wasting our time with this intro?

Unfortunately, I stuck with this and almost 800 words later nothing's happened except you kissed a guy. It seems a long-winded way of describing a furtive attempt at exploring an alternative sexual experience. A bit light-weight to be honest.

H3K
Title: Re: Been There Done That
Post by: Dawn on February 22, 2013, 07:05:03 PM
I have to agree, Brian. Would you want to read this in a magazine? Delve deeper. Give the reader what they deserve.
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 22, 2013, 08:34:46 PM
hmm? Not the answer I expected. But as always I love your honesty. The reason I didn't use the 'old' words like homo or poof or the like is even though this did happen in the 70's where these words were accepted they wouldn't be accepted now, IMO. So to save any kind of offense I up-graded to the non-offensive word. even though I'm telling a story from back then, people tend to take things out of context and get angry, so I was only covering my own arse, as it were.

I'm trying different ways of saying things or I should say writing things. So am looking about to see if I can develop different voices and concepts. I don't want everything I do to be about the Pit. All of the things I describe here happened. Except the kiss. Am not, nor have I ever been, homophobic. I sometimes prefer my gay friends to straight guys. They have a better sense of humour than anyone I've ever met. I see what you mean re the "asked him" shvon, sorry, its just my lack of techie as usual shining thru. :)  Sorry this disappointed you's guys, but come on! You must be used to this by now! ;D(I see my self-deprecating defense is alive and well) I thought that by describing the setting and the feelings and sensations of the guys it would be a show and not a tell. Or a describing tell, if such a thing can exist?  Failed again. Wonder if I'll ever finally get it?  I put the "cheers Bri" to show it was the end, didn't see any harm. Will put this in my Failure-file and keep going. Like I've said before, I'm gonna engage/entertain you with writing if it kills me! Thanks again guys. (I wanna end with Cheers but I get the feeling I may get me arse smacked off shvon, so I'll refrain in this post.) :)
Title: Re: Been There Done That
Post by: Sasquatch on February 22, 2013, 08:53:01 PM
Brian - you definitely are getting better, that much is evident in your punctuation and how much more coherently your thoughts stay together.

It's a recount of a particular meeting and as such is all tell and much of it is passive rather than active.

This! To "tell" about the thing that happened, you're narrating. From an armchair. I think the light bulb is about to go on, Bri. Really look at the sentence above, that Siobhan posted, and think about it like this: do you really want to tell us what happened? Or, more appropriately, do you want to let the story be the thing that happened, and not step all over it with your "So I suspected why he felt nervous" type of stuff - let the words just be the happening, as it's happening. Does that make any sense?

I am just finally getting this concept myself, and I think what Siobhan says above is spot on. Recounting the event is not as exciting as the event happening and we don't have to experience it through the filter of a narrator. I hope this is helpful.

Keep working at it, man. You've got the urge, you've got the time, and you obviously have the words. :)
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 22, 2013, 09:03:08 PM
Hiya Sas, to tell you the truth, for some reason I can't get it right. I'm finding it more difficult than I thought it would be. It just won't sink in! I've looked at the lots of different examples on here(am sure you saw that terrible one I did on Lins?) and still whatever I post comes out as tell. I do get tired of not being able to do it, but I have to keep going, or else I'll have to hire someone to tell the stories I have. Thanks for the tips and trying to help me. I do appreciate it/them. Bri.
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: Dawn on February 23, 2013, 02:22:01 AM
Why not, take what you have (or a little snippet) and write it as though it was a diary? Create a character, doesn't have to be your self. Basically, write the story as though it all happened it a few days, but say it all through dialogue. I'm not saying this is how your story will end up, but think it will help you understand show/tell more.

Friday - John came in last night . . .

Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: hillwalker3000 on February 23, 2013, 05:15:26 AM
You admit to having a problem seeing the difference between telling and showing. It's not the end of the world - but it's holding you back. Your writing has improved (surely you can see that for yourself) - now it's time to move up another gear.

This example is 100% tell:

We kissed like this for about 10 seconds, then I felt the tip of his tongue exploring, probing the outside of my lips. At first I was shocked, I wasn't expecting things to go this far.

You are reporting what happened and what it felt like - then how you felt. You say you were 'shocked'. But I'm no nearer understanding how you really felt because the word 'shocked' can be interpreted several ways. Were you 'good shocked'? 'bad shocked'? 'mildly shocked'? 'earthquakingly shocked'? You're the only one who knows.

Something along these lines might make it clearer to the reader:

The kiss made ten seconds stretch like elastic - the tip of his tongue exploring and probing the outside of my lips as if searching for something I didn't even know existed. I held my breath. Waiting for the room to swallow me up yet desperate not to break the spell. It was as if I had discovered a new continent outside my front door - not part of my plans for the night.

It's no better or worse than your effort but it sheds a little more light on what thoughts might have been going through your head. It shows something that is otherwise hidden behind inadequate choice of words.
Telling is often a short-cut way of painting a picture - using labels. Showing gives more depth and so leaves the reader with a more lasting impression of what you're writing about.

H3K
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 23, 2013, 05:32:25 AM
hey phil, thanks for this as always great adv. My trouble seems to be, that not only am I learning but I have to get rid of myriad bad habits that I've picked up over the years that shine badly in my work. Remember how many exclams in one piece? I use quotation marks where theyre not needed, and I put question marks where(as shvon showed last night) theyre inappropriately placed. I get your example, and I will use that as an exercise to try to improve, hope I get it.
so a bit like. . .

He waited outside the theatre, nervously fidgeting with the change in his pockets. Money? check. Comb? check. Condoms, just in case? check. He looked at his reflection in the theatre window behind him. Lookin good, Gawd. I could fancy me myself. Would she show? He hoped she showed, this suit cost a bomb, he'd better get something good to show for it. More than a quick peck on the cheek as well. He wanted...........Is this better?

using both your examples. . . . . He held the tickets tightly in his hand, peering in the soft streetlight at the Title, Les Mis. . .or something. Who the hell is Les? quick look at his reflection in the window behind, hair good? check. Suit, lookin sharp? check. the queue started to form, he held himself back and stood in the shadows of a doorway. One last check over to see if he had everything. Patted left pocket, loose change and tickets. Back pocket, wallet with the big money just in case? Right pocket, condoms. Mustn't lose those. It had been three months, he didn't want any possible conclusions ruined by not having 'protection.' 

Anything better?   
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: hillwalker3000 on February 23, 2013, 05:44:01 AM
The italicised parts are certainly more show - but of course we still need to be told where he is.

So you could go for:
The queue outside the theatre hadn't moved an inch for the last ten minutes. Money? check. Comb? check. Condoms, just in case? check. A familiar face stared back at him from the reflection in the theatre window. Lookin good, Gawd. I could fancy me myself. Would she show? He hoped she showed, repetition turned up because this suit cost a bomb.he'd better get something good to show for it. More than a quick peck on the cheek as well.

I've scratched out the last bit because you're almost telling us again what you've already shown us earlier - and you use the word show for the third time. There's no need to spell out everything for the reader - the fact that he has condoms is enough for us to work out how he hopes the evening will end.

H3K
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: Dawn on February 23, 2013, 05:46:19 AM
Much better. Why not have him holding the theatre ticket? So the reader knows where he is, without you spelling it out.
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: Dawn on February 23, 2013, 05:51:29 AM
This website has some examples for you

http://storysensei.blogspot.co.uk/2009/06/show-versus-tell-examples.html
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 23, 2013, 06:05:22 AM
great adv guys. So say it without saying it, directly! refer to it rather than explain it? s'that it?
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: Dawn on February 23, 2013, 06:17:55 AM
Kind of. Show it through the eyes of your character.

Very simply put.

Instead of saying it was raining hard outside. Show what the rain was doing - here think of the 5 senses.

I suppose use your poetic side more.

If a place looks busy instead of saying it looked busy - think what do the people look like? - a sea of umbrellas bobbing in the wind (hints at it raining/windy/blustery day) swimming trunks could hint at a beach - what are they doing? What is the smells in the air? Where are the going? Why are they going?

Anyway I'm waffling now.
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 23, 2013, 06:24:30 AM
went back and put a moddy on a few posts back, sorry I didn't put it here properly. Excuse: only had one coffee, working on that now! ;D

went back and saved the Sensei to me HUGE tips file Dawn. Thanks so much. b
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: Lin on February 23, 2013, 07:28:19 AM
Brian, Why don't you enrol on a creative writing course?   Our members here are not teachers but in a face to face situation it might help you to allow the penny to drop when you share a workshop with others.  The internet is fine for many things, but cannot replace the body language of a tutor and the students in a classroom.  I really get the impression you will only learn with a teacher, a mentor to guide you on a weekly basis, to show you where you are going wrong.  The members here are very patient, but they aren't teachers and it shouldn't be be their job to do this.  

I would really recommend you attend writing workshops, you learn so much more in a face to face situation.  Hope to see you soon because then you can talk to the authors in York and ask some questions.  Find out what it's like in the real world of writers and authors, such a valuable experience.  

Good luck

Lin
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 23, 2013, 08:15:40 AM
Thank you. bri.
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: 510bhan on February 23, 2013, 09:05:27 AM
Did you notice in Phil's first tweak that 'I felt' was removed from the kiss/tongue sentence and it went straight into the action of the exploration and probing . . . little things like that will elevate/rescue a piece from tell to show. ;)

We kissed like this for about 10 seconds, then I felt the tip of his tongue exploring, probing the outside of my lips. At first I was shocked, I wasn't expecting things to go this far.

The kiss made ten seconds stretch like elastic - the tip of his tongue exploring and probing the outside of my lips as if searching for something I didn't even know existed. I held my breath. Waiting for the room to swallow me up yet desperate not to break the spell. It was as if I had discovered a new continent outside my front door - not part of my plans for the night.

Whenever you are using your senses to engage your reader [always good] don't mention the taste/smell/sight/sound directly. It eliminates redundancies and makes more impact. Very basic examples below:
I heard the sound of footsteps crunch on the gravel. ->>>> Footsteps crunched the gravel. [How do you know . . . you heard them, the crunchng sound/noise if the giveaway to the sense being used]
The taste of vanilla lingered on my lips after I kissed her. ->>> After I kissed her, vanilla [flavour maybe] lingered on my lips. [what else is going to longer on your lips in this situation other than a taste?]
I saw blue skies up above us. ->>> Blue skies stretched above us. [how do you know where the blue skies were . . .  you must have seen them]
A fragrant smell of baked bread wafted on the air. ->>> The baked bread fragrance/aroma wafted on the air. [fragrance/aroma suggests smell is being used for this experience]
I felt cold and shivered. ->>>> Cold made me shiver.   
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 23, 2013, 12:19:08 PM
Did you notice in Phil's first tweak that 'I felt' was removed from the kiss/tongue sentence and it went straight into the action of the exploration and probing . . . little things like that will elevate/rescue a piece from tell to show. ;)

We kissed like this for about 10 seconds, then I felt the tip of his tongue exploring, probing the outside of my lips. At first I was shocked, I wasn't expecting things to go this far.

The kiss made ten seconds stretch like elastic - the tip of his tongue exploring and probing the outside of my lips as if searching for something I didn't even know existed. I held my breath. Waiting for the room to swallow me up yet desperate not to break the spell. It was as if I had discovered a new continent outside my front door - not part of my plans for the night.

Whenever you are using your senses to engage your reader [always good] don't mention the taste/smell/sight/sound directly. It eliminates redundancies and makes more impact. Very basic examples below:
I heard the sound of footsteps crunch on the gravel. ->>>> Footsteps crunched the gravel. [How do you know . . . you heard them, the crunchng sound/noise if the giveaway to the sense being used]
The taste of vanilla lingered on my lips after I kissed her. ->>> After I kissed her, vanilla [flavour maybe] lingered on my lips. [what else is going to longer on your lips in this situation other than a taste?]
I saw blue skies up above us. ->>> Blue skies stretched above us. [how do you know where the blue skies were . . .  you must have seen them]
A fragrant smell of baked bread wafted on the air. ->>> The baked bread fragrance/aroma wafted on the air. [fragrance/aroma suggests smell is being used for this experience]
I felt cold and shivered. ->>>> Cold made me shiver.   

Yes, yes. This is good I can see this now. Thanks shvon, it's kinda like I said, seeing it without directly saying it. inferring it. Being descriptive but writing it/them better. Thanks shvon. x
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: 510bhan on February 23, 2013, 01:05:27 PM
It's like in real life, unless you are being given a command or order, you wouldn't 'tell' someone where to stand . . .  you'd nod to where perhaps others had already gathered, point to a sign, take them by the arm and escort them while you chat . . . lots of different ways of getting them there to the right place without saying "Join those other three by the yellow wall on the right" sort of thing. :-[

Does that make any sense? :-\
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: ma100 on February 23, 2013, 02:26:23 PM
Okay,  an exercise Brian that might help you.

Look at all these words and pretend they are swear words and not to use them in public. However, an odd one slips through. ;)

Telling indicators: Was, were, had, there, it, lys, have been.

Your first para.

I was a Night-Club bouncer in my early twenties. I had women falling for me regularly. This isn't a boast. I think the idea of going out with a bouncer may have been the main attraction, or they got in the Night-club without paying. Either way, it seemed to be girl-heaven for me. But I digress. One night a gorgeous feller came in, and later in the night we got talking. He was a foreign exchange student from . . . one of the colonies, I think? He had a beautiful toned athletic body, with curly tousled blond hair and a great personality. He dressed casually but I could see by the way he comported himself that he'd thought about his dress sense and everything he had on probably felt right for him. He'd had an interesting life, but he wasn't a blow-hard as most of the guys were in those days. He'd engaged my interest by being funny. This always attracted me to girls back then.

Okay, look at all those swear words. ;D One or two is fine, but you are telling a lot. With your work highlight all the telling indicators and try and reword with stronger more descriptive words, actions and imagery.

Next break it down. I am going to give your character a name. I feel you go way over the top with your I starts and I do think being in first person you automatically go into tell mode.

I was a night-club bouncer in my early twenties.

Phil puffed out his chest and flicked a stray hair from his Burtons suit. The birds are going to love me tonight. He blew a kiss to his reflection in the ticket booth window.

The manager sauntered over to the nightclub entrance. "Oi, Prince Charming, I'm letting the punters in."

"Yes, Boss." Heat crept up his cheeks.

Okay you need to understand what I have shown there out of one of your sentences. It may not be right to your story or isn't great writing, but I am trying to get you to recognise what info you have told is now shown in this piece.

Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 23, 2013, 05:33:10 PM
just a quickie ansa. Can see what yous both mean. Will wait for an empty room before I have a go (so I can concentrate) Skinny's half way thru a bottle of wine so, not long i think! ha ha Thanks for the tips. As Lin has already said, I'm using you as my teachers. It's not sitting right with me, leaves me feeling guilty. I do appreciate you's helping me. But as long as you're interested, I'm interested.  xx
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: ma100 on February 23, 2013, 05:37:41 PM
Brian, look carefully at my quick rewrite and list how many of the facts you have told in your paragraph are shown in it. ;)
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: DistantSun on February 23, 2013, 05:58:42 PM
Bri - I'm in the same boat as you, struggling with trying to absorb the concept of show-vs-tell, so I'm just tagging along and soaking up some of this advice our knowledgable friends are kind enough to share :D
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: Sasquatch on February 23, 2013, 06:02:59 PM
Yep, same here. I think we all are trying to wrap our heads around this. I was encouraged earlier today, after reading a few chapters in a really popular book, Snow Falling on Cedars. It's a critically acclaimed work, but has the exact same kinds of issues riddled throughout. Of course, the plot is masterful, the characters interesting, and the setting very well done, but a ton of was/were, lots of authorial intrusion. So take heart!

I think the standard is very high around here, as it should be, but it can feel defeating to beginners.
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: ma100 on February 23, 2013, 06:11:25 PM
No, no, you must not be defeated by my comments. What you must do though is get your head round the concept. The penny will drop if you break your writing down and see exactly what you need to change. :-*
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: DistantSun on February 23, 2013, 06:12:55 PM
Yep, same here. I think we all are trying to wrap our heads around this. I was encouraged earlier today, after reading a few chapters in a really popular book, Snow Falling on Cedars. It's a critically acclaimed work, but has the exact same kinds of issues riddled throughout. Of course, the plot is masterful, the characters interesting, and the setting very well done, but a ton of was/were, lots of authorial intrusion. So take heart!

I think the standard is very high around here, as it should be, but it can feel defeating to beginners.

That's on my shelf behind me - picked it up for a quarter at a yard sale last year. Very intense read. I do agree though about 'examining' the writing that I read, as I'm reading it.
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: Dawn on February 23, 2013, 06:18:24 PM
I find I can't read a book as a reader anymore :'(

Guys, you can all write. Maybe you're just overthinking it.
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 23, 2013, 06:20:22 PM
Thanks for the encouraging words of support sas and welcome too Ds. I think defeating is too strong a word Sas. I prefer challenging. I'm challenging myself to be a better writer. With ma, shvon, phil and dawn's help, it's starting to sink in. Like I keep telling shvon and phil, "I'll write something interesting to engage them if it kills me!" Thanks again. Later ma. Got a tipsy-skinny to contend with and she's so demanding! ha ha. Do this! Do that! Touch me there! Keep doing that! I'll tell you when to stop!(Billy Connolly) ha ha. bri.
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: ma100 on February 23, 2013, 06:24:44 PM
Just to show you how bad my writing was. This was my first piece up for review here.  :-[ Yep and I let all the entrants rip with it.
 ;D
http://mywriterscircle.com/index.php?topic=46859.0
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 23, 2013, 06:26:05 PM
about the book thingy. I'm the same. I cant read a book anymore without critting it! I've just finished a book by Ernest Hemingway's grandson. The Tomb of Alexander. Right up my street, as it were. Except he's a custodian of the Met(I think?)in his real life, and you can tell. It's a complete info-dump! All the way through it. Fine, if you want to further your interest in works of art. But not if you're waiting for a "story" to unfold. Ma, I know what you're gonna say next so don't bother cos I was still reading it while the inks were happening! ha ha. :-*
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: Dawn on February 23, 2013, 06:28:17 PM
Thanks for the honesty, Ma. I certainly appreciate it.  I wonder what mine was? A steaming pile of ;)
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 23, 2013, 06:30:16 PM
Just to show you how bad my writing was. This was my first piece up for review here.  :-[ Yep and I let all the entrants rip with it.
 ;D
http://mywriterscircle.com/index.php?topic=46859.0

Pulitzer anyone? Wow! Is that really how you posted it ma? Am so impressed by this. (for the wrong, but right reasons) This gives me lots of hope. Cheers for revealing your soft under-belly. x
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: ma100 on February 23, 2013, 06:33:53 PM
What you are all forgetting is we are all here to learn, just at varying levels. So in effect we're all in the same boat. ;)
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: Sasquatch on February 23, 2013, 06:34:36 PM
Definitely, Ma. Thanks for showing us that, and I'd like to say that while it has errors in the punctuation, etc., you're still not shabby as a storyteller, which is obvious even in that early work. Glad you're here helping guide us new writers. :) :)
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 23, 2013, 06:40:45 PM
tongue firmly in cheek, ;D you're such a suck up, ma responded to the words. Preening, checking the nails, buffed the hair, trying her best to look urbane and interesting replied, "Yes, I am good, aren't I?"  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: ma100 on February 23, 2013, 06:45:23 PM
Punctuation has always been my nemesis Sas. I'm still the worlds worst, but now I recognise some of it, but I will never be a grammarian. ;D

I don't hide that fact and everyone is use to me cocking it up. I read books, I even tried a course, but it might as well have been in chinese. ;)

You all will start recognising different stages of writing, but don't try getting every concept right at once. Baby steps and move on to the next obstacle.
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: 510bhan on February 23, 2013, 06:48:24 PM
Everyone on here has their own agenda, those who are willing to make mistakes publically in order to learn from the crits/comments will probably make more progress than those who don't IMO.

This is actually quite a safe, independent environment where people are being supportive. There's no -- 'if you like my ms I'll like yours' crap going on like some other sites. Each piece is judged on its own merit. We try new things occasionally -- sometimes we get it right and sometimes we make a dreadful hash of it all, forgetting the earlier lessons. It's all good.com. :D
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 23, 2013, 06:49:02 PM
I got content. I got amount. I got voice. I got things to say. Interesting things, judging by the amount of crits. The only problem I  have is Show.Tell. Tenses.
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: 510bhan on February 23, 2013, 06:50:03 PM
 . . .  erm, and losing redundancies. ;D :o
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 23, 2013, 06:51:01 PM
. . .  erm, and losing redundancies. ;D :o

I had a sneaking suspicion you're list would be infinately bigger than mine. ;D
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: 510bhan on February 23, 2013, 06:54:22 PM
Now, Bri' you know I'm a mate. ;)
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: ma100 on February 23, 2013, 06:54:40 PM
Well Brian if you don't have a go at that little exercise I set you, I tell you now, I won't come back again because my time is mine.  ;) It doesn't even matter if you have trouble, at least you will have been seen to try. ;)
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 23, 2013, 07:00:03 PM
I'm going to ma. I can post these little answers as we type, freely, but for something I really want to accomplish properly, I want to give it my full attention without distraction. So as soon as I've got the place to mesel I'll look, copy and re-write! I do appreciate your time and patience with me. Not treating it lightly. My threads and stories would be a lot less critted without your input. I see you as a friend just as much as I see shvon and the rest. Nothing will I do to jeopardise this. Ok?   OK?!  :)
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 24, 2013, 09:04:53 AM
Been There, Done That

Phil's job as a Night-Club bouncer, puzzled him, maybe it was the idea of going out with a bouncer or the fact they got in the night-club without paying that made the women make a bee-line for him. It seemed to be girl-heaven for him. He never complained about it, why cut me nose off to spite my face?
This knowledge actually had a good effect on him, and his dress code improved drastically. Standing in the foyer of the club, he gazed at his reflection in the doors-glass, top to toe. Almost chucking-in time, suit-pressed, hair-combed, shoes-polished. he stood straighter, puffing his chest out, trying to look irrisistible.



Later that night he had an extroadinary encounter, that had a profound effect on him, that would change his viewpoint on many things, including romance. Over the preceding last few months he'd seen quite a few foreign-exchange students patronise the club. This one looked different, from . . . one of the colonies, maybe? Australia? America? His tanned athletic body a dead giveaway, with curly tousled blond hair. He could see by the way he comported himself that he'd thought about his dress sense and everything he had on probably felt right for him. As he passed Phil, he nodded and winked, "G'day," Ah, Australia, full of vim and vigour and beach parties with thousands of shrimp tossed on the barB's. Phil nodded in return, keeping up the appearance of being a hard-ass by not replying. The Aussie strode past and climbed the stairs to the club.
An hour later, with the last of the late-night revellers stumbling in, it was time for Phil to make his first round of the club. A necessary chore, but you have to let the girls see the goods. "On tonights menu ladies, we have. . . !"

I have to stop this for now, Skinny's looking and throwing daggers of neglect at me, but this is where I'm up to. Is this looking/reading any better?

Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: ma100 on February 24, 2013, 09:24:37 AM

I have nothing to say except this. You haven't even tried to recognise what has been shown. ;)

Okay,  an exercise Brian that might help you.

Look at all these words and pretend they are swear words and not to use them in public. However, an odd one slips through. ;)

Telling indicators: Was, were, had, there, it, lys, have been.

Your first para.

I was a Night-Club bouncer in my early twenties. I had women falling for me regularly. This isn't a boast. I think the idea of going out with a bouncer may have been the main attraction, or they got in the Night-club without paying. Either way, it seemed to be girl-heaven for me. But I digress. One night a gorgeous feller came in, and later in the night we got talking. He was a foreign exchange student from . . . one of the colonies, I think? He had a beautiful toned athletic body, with curly tousled blond hair and a great personality. He dressed casually but I could see by the way he comported himself that he'd thought about his dress sense and everything he had on probably felt right for him. He'd had an interesting life, but he wasn't a blow-hard as most of the guys were in those days. He'd engaged my interest by being funny. This always attracted me to girls back then.

Okay, look at all those swear words. ;D One or two is fine, but you are telling a lot. With your work highlight all the telling indicators and try and reword with stronger more descriptive words, actions and imagery.

Next break it down. I am going to give your character a name. I feel you go way over the top with your I starts and I do think being in first person you automatically go into tell mode.

I was a night-club bouncer in my early twenties.

Phil puffed out his chest and flicked a stray hair from his Burtons suit. The birds are going to love me tonight. He blew a kiss to his reflection in the ticket booth window.

The manager sauntered over to the nightclub entrance. "Oi, Prince Charming, I'm letting the punters in."

"Yes, Boss." Heat crept up his cheeks.

Okay you need to understand what I have shown there out of one of your sentences. It may not be right to your story or isn't great writing, but I am trying to get you to recognise what info you have told is now shown in this piece.


Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 24, 2013, 09:29:29 AM
sorry ma. Will look again, I tried making it briefer with fewer words. taking out the "he" and "was's". Obviously didn't manage it. Will try again. x
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 24, 2013, 10:13:10 AM
Brian's body slumped dejectedly, 'why can't I get this right? They do it easily enough, what's the secret?' He took his hands off the keyboard, fingers starting to cramp.  Skinny chimed in, "what's up? Still getting it wrong?"
She knew how much he wanted to get this right.
"Sorry love, maybe I should take the guitar up again?"
"You'll do no such thing! Anyway, . . .you can't. . . . I've. . . sold your. . . guitars."
"You've What?!"
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: Dawn on February 24, 2013, 10:37:28 AM
We would like to trial a practice thread over on All the Write Questions board. This will give our members chance to practice the elusive show/tell.

Please bear in mind though, that this will only work if you want it to. Therefore, we need everybody to pull together, and help each other out. Otherwise, the thread will just fall off the board. I'm sure, you can all see how valuable this thread could be to us all.

I would like to set a word count to 150 words max. However, this can be reviewed.

Brian, we would like to use your first paragraph to get the ball rolling. Would this be okay with you?
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 24, 2013, 10:41:26 AM
Oh yes! Yes please. Am in danger of losing the few friends I've made with my constant mistakes so yes. Go ahead.
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: Dawn on February 24, 2013, 10:43:16 AM
Thank you. :-*
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: Alice, a Country Gal on February 24, 2013, 11:46:33 AM
Brian, have you ever given this a try?
http://prowritingaid.com/en/Home/Index#.USpDZKLBObs

You can find it and many other sites in our Resource Center:
http://mywriterscircle.com/index.php?topic=45283.0

Check it out, give it a try. I'm not saying you have to change everything suggested, but you may find what you need to Show you how to improve.
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 24, 2013, 02:51:00 PM
Am sure if you're offering it/them to me then they'll be a benefit. Thanks. Will have a quick look while I'm waiting for an answer to what I just posted. Thanks. x
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: Dawn on February 24, 2013, 03:27:41 PM
It's very good, Brian. The green ticks make it addictive.
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 24, 2013, 03:29:51 PM
have had a go on the other thread. crappin mesel now. Scared o upsettin ma, she's a bugger ain't she. Usually I love a dominant woman, but now am not so sure?  :)
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: hillwalker3000 on February 24, 2013, 03:51:39 PM
Argh!!! Where's Lin when we need someone to slap your legs? You're making hard work of something so simple.

Phil's job as a Night-Club bouncer, puzzled him.
This is obviously telling the reader something - can you see that? You (the writer) are stating a fact that Phil was a bouncer and his job puzzled him. - telling the reader something. The same goes for the rest of the sentence (which should be a separate sentence btw).

Maybe it was the idea of going out with a bouncer or the fact they got in the night-club without paying that made the women make a bee-line for him.

It seemed to be girl-heaven for him.
Another sentence that is telling us something.

He never complained about it
100% telling.

Why cut me nose off to spite my face?
This should be another separate sentence - and it's an awful cliché disguised as an internalised thought. I expect better than this having read some of your earlier stuff.

Can you see a pattern emerging? All you have done so far is feed the reader a series of facts. I can't get my head around Phil's 'puzzlement' because his idea of being puzzled might differ from mine.

What should you be doing? Fist of all, forget you're writing a story because it obviously plays havoc with your brain. Put yourself in Phil's shoes and let him do it for you. Is he thinking 'I'm a bouncer and I'm puzzled'? Probably not. Where is he? What can he see?

Here's one way you can do it. You're still telling us what's happening here and there, but allowing Phil's thoughts and reactions to reveal the story bit by bit - using dialogue where necessary. You're not recording things like an impartial observer perched in the clouds high above. You're much closer to the action - encouraging the reader to associate themselves with Phil or the woman and so better engage with the story.

Saturday night, nine o'clock, Phil tightened the knot on his tie and watched the cars pull up outside 'Phrenzy'.
Some of the girls being dropped off already looked hyper: giggling like schoolgirls, too much make up plastered over their faces and skirts barely covering their arses. He took in several deep breaths. A hen party by the sound of it. He'd need to have his wits about him tonight.
"Evening ladies"
Wow. That blonde piece in the red top was a bit of all right. His heartbeat stepped up a gear as she reached the head of the queue and trapped his arm against her bosom.
"I haven't got me ID with me but I'm over eighteen, honest. I'm all woman. Just look at me."
Breathless and fluttering her eyelashes. He'd seen it all before.
"Sorry, lovey. I'd lose me job."
"Aw, go on. I'll make it worth your while."
He'd heard it all before as well. The sickly scent of strawberry shampoo and too much booze made the decision that bit easier.
"Ok, next?"
"Ooh. Hello handsome. You're a big boy, aren't ya?"
He gave her a lop-sided grin. Was it the tight-fitting leather jacket and splash of 'Blue Stratos' that made him so irresistible or the chance of free entry and a couple of drinks on the house?

I'll not go through the rest of this in detail. Just accept the fact that most of the time here you're still telling us what happened as if you're hovering overhead providing a voice-over - spelling everything out so the reader doesn't have to do anything except sit back and take your word for everything.
The problem is, readers who can't engage with the story won't continue reading it for long.

H3K
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 24, 2013, 04:08:35 PM
Sorry phil, the latest revis is in the other thread.

Please don't sick Lin on me! ;D

Wow! just re-read your post. That's brill. Wish I could do it as easily.
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: 510bhan on February 24, 2013, 04:22:19 PM
I've brought it here:

Eying his appearance in the entrance doorway-glass, smoothing a fleck of lint from his shoulder and watching its descent. [this sentence does not make sense -- look at your verbs and your subject -- where is it?] Have I still got it? course I do, who could resist this body, these looks, the free passes?
 
"Oi! Arse-hole, when you can tear yourself away from admiring yourself, we've got a club to open!" The Manager's caustic voice shocked him into looking idiotic and amateurish in front of the 'talent,' his reputation in shreds now.

He started unbolting the doors, mentally checking out the local tarts waiting to get in. Who's the lucky girl tonight then? One little blonde definately liking the look of him, giving him the glad-eye.[as well as tell it's syntactically incorrect. I'd lose it, you mention her later when she speaks, so for now I'd stick with her description.] He spotted one on her own, no over-clingy mates to get rid of, make-up applied a little too carefully, gagging for it. So she's got her best clobber on, a right tidy little package. He threw the doors wide to let the herd in, "Evening Ladies, Welcome to Paradise!"

The blonde still giving him the eye, passed him and offered, "Aye aye, ow are ya?"

Oh God, why can't I get the whole package, with these girls? Good looks, fabulous body with a nice plummy voice that makes you want to listen when she says anything, with not just your ears pricking up . . . ?
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 24, 2013, 04:45:12 PM
Eying his appearance in the entrance doorway-glass, smoothing a fleck of lint from his shoulder. Have I still got it? course I do, who could resist this body, these looks, the free passes?
 
"Oi! Arse-hole, when you can tear yourself away from admiring yourself, we've got a club to open!" The Manager's caustic voice shocked him into movement, he hadn't heard him coming up behind him. Bugger, that'd be another demerit on his record.

He started unbolting the doors, mentally checking out the local tarts waiting to get in. Who's the lucky girl tonight then? One little blonde definately liking the look of him, giving him the eye. On her own, no over-clingy mates to get rid of, make-up applied a little too carefully, gagging for it. She's got her best clobber on, a right tidy little package. He threw the doors wide to let the herd in, "Evening Ladies, Welcome to Paradise!"

The blonde still giving him the eye, passing him offered, "Aye aye, ow are ya?"

Oh God, why can't I get the whole package, with these girls? Good looks, fabulous body, with a nice plummy voice that makes you want to listen when she says anything. With not just your ears pricking up . . .
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: 510bhan on February 24, 2013, 05:03:33 PM
Eying his appearance in the entrance doorway-glass, smoothing a fleck of lint from his shoulder. [who or what is doing the eying and the smoothing? . . .  you have no subect in the sentence. A sentence requires a subject and a verb] Have I still got it? course I do, who could resist this body, these looks, the free passes?
 
"Oi! Arse-hole, when you can tear yourself away from admiring yourself, we've got a club to open!" The Manager's caustic voice shocked him into movement, he hadn't heard him coming up behind him. Bugger, that'd be another demerit on his record.

He started unbolting the doors, mentally checking out the local tarts waiting to get in. Who's the lucky girl tonight then? One little blonde definately liking the look of him, giving him the eye. [tense . . .  either gave him the eye or was giving. Using 'giving' on its own doesn't work. Like I said before you could probably cut it because you refer to her later and it will also get rid of the repeat phrase.] On her own, no over-clingy mates to get rid of, make-up applied a little too carefully, gagging for it. She's got her best clobber on, a right tidy little package. He threw the doors wide to let the herd in, "Evening Ladies, Welcome to Paradise!"

The blonde still giving him the eye, passing him offered, "Aye aye, ow are ya?"

Oh God, why can't I get the whole package, with these girls? Good looks, fabulous body, with a nice plummy voice that makes you want to listen when she says anything. With not just your ears pricking up . . .
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 24, 2013, 05:16:40 PM
oh I see, hang on. brb
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: hillwalker3000 on February 24, 2013, 05:27:25 PM
I got a bit confused with the mix of third-person narrative and first-person internalised thoughts. Not so much showing as puzzling.

Eying his appearance in the entrance doorway-glass, smoothing a fleck of lint from his shoulder.
I know you think you're showing us what he's doing - but this is still telling. Instead of reporting what he's looking at, why not allow the internalised dialogue do it all for you?

'Hiya, handsome. Ready to rumba? Ooh - a bit of lint on the old shoulder pads there. Have I still got it? Of course I do.  Who can resist this body, these looks, the free passes?'

Most readers will have figured out he's admiring his reflection. . .

"Oi! Arse-hole, when you can tear yourself away from admiring yourself, we've got a club to open!"
. . . so if we already know he's admiring himself you don't need to have the manager spell it out for us again. Agreed?

The Manager's caustic voice shocked him into movement, he hadn't heard him coming up behind him. Bugger, that'd be another demerit on his record.

If you now intend switching to a third-person narrative rather than internalised dialogue you have to be especially careful of telling everything. I'd say that the first sentence is 100% telling - and the second is distracting and borderline authorial intrusion. A demerit for looking at himself in the window?

He flicked his unfinished cigarette into the gutter and gave the manager a shit-eating grin.
Yes sir, yes sir, three bags full, sir.

As I suspected, the rest is rather a muddled mixture of statements and more internalised thoughts.

He started unbolting the doors, mentally checking out the local tarts waiting to get in. Who's the lucky girl tonight then? One little blonde definitely liking the look of him, giving him the eye. On her own, no over-clingy mates to get rid of, make-up applied a little too carefully, gagging for it. She's got her best clobber on, a right tidy little package. He threw the doors wide to let the herd in, "Evening Ladies, Welcome to Paradise!"
The blonde still giving him the eye, passing him offered, "Aye aye, ow are ya?"
Oh God, why can't I get the whole package, with these girls? Good looks, fabulous body, with a nice plummy voice that makes you want to listen when she says anything. With not just your ears pricking up . . .


Personally I think this scene works best if you stick with his internalised thoughts. At least then you don't need to tell us you're checking out the tarts as you check them out (which is what you have done here more or less) or inform us how one blonde gives you/him the eye (twice) before showing us how she goes about giving you/him the eye.

H3K
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 24, 2013, 05:34:35 PM
Eying his appearance in the entrance doorway-glass. Brian stood in the foyer, brushing a fleck of lint from his shoulder. Have I still got it? course I do, who could resist this body, these looks, the free passes?
 
"Oi! Arse-hole, when you can tear yourself away from admiring yourself, we've got a club to open!" The Manager's caustic voice shocked him into movement, he hadn't heard him coming up behind him. Bugger! That'd be another demerit on my record.

He started unbolting the doors, mentally checking out the local tarts waiting to get in. Who's the lucky girl tonight then? One little blonde definately liking the look of him, gave him the eye. On her own, no over-clingy mates to get rid of, make-up applied a little too carefully, gagging for it. She's got her best clobber on, a right tidy little package. He threw the doors wide to let the herd in, "Evening Ladies, Welcome to Paradise!"

As they paraded themselves past him into the club, they rubbed their arms in an effort to get warm. He goggled at the scantily-clad body parts on show. The temperature outside must have dropped a little in the last few hours. Look at the nipples on her! Glad to be in the warm environs of the club, the blonde he'd spotted earlier, passed him, and shouted "Aye aye, ow are ya?"

What a big-mouth! why can't I get the whole package, with these girls? Good looks, fabulous body, with a nice plummy voice that makes you want to listen when she says anything. With not just your ears pricking up . . .
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: 510bhan on February 24, 2013, 05:37:59 PM
Did you read Phil's critique before you posted this? Often you are giving the information twice -- choose one, the best way for balance, imagery and economy of words. Look back at what he has suggested and explained. ;) ;) ;)

Eying his appearance in the entrance doorway-glass, Brian stood in the foyer, brushing a fleck of lint from his shoulder. Have I still got it? course I do, who could resist this body, these looks, the free passes?
 
"Oi! Arse-hole, when you can tear yourself away from admiring yourself, we've got a club to open!" The Manager's caustic voice shocked him into movement, he hadn't heard him coming up behind him. Bugger! That'd be another demerit on my record.

He started unbolting the doors, mentally checking out the local tarts waiting to get in. Who's the lucky girl tonight then? One little blonde definately liking the look of him, gave him the eye. On her own, no over-clingy mates to get rid of, make-up applied a little too carefully, gagging for it. She's got her best clobber on, a right tidy little package. He threw the doors wide to let the herd in, "Evening Ladies, Welcome to Paradise!"

As they paraded themselves past him into the club, they rubbed their arms in an effort to get warm. He goggled at the scantily-clad body parts on show. The temperature outside must have dropped a little in the last few hours. Look at the nipples on her! Glad to be in the warm environs of the club, the blonde he'd spotted earlier, passed him, and shouted "Aye aye, ow are ya?"

What a big-mouth! why can't I get the whole package, with these girls? Good looks, fabulous body, with a nice plummy voice that makes you want to listen when she says anything. With not just your ears pricking up . . .
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: hillwalker3000 on February 24, 2013, 05:39:09 PM
Now you're going backwards - perhaps it's too late to think straight.

Eying his appearance in the entrance doorway-glass. Brian stood in the foyer, brushing a fleck of lint from his shoulder.
The Manager's caustic voice shocked him into movement, he hadn't heard him coming up behind him.
He started unbolting the doors, mentally checking out the local tarts waiting to get in.
One little blonde definately liking the look of him, gave him the eye.
As they paraded themselves past him into the club, they rubbed their arms in an effort to get warm. He goggled at the scantily-clad body parts on show.
Glad to be in the warm environs of the club, the blonde he'd spotted earlier, passed him, and shouted "Aye aye, ow are ya?"


All tell, I'm afraid. I can hear the voice-over in my head.

H3K
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 24, 2013, 05:41:37 PM
I posted after you phil. I only changed a bit of stuff and dropped a bit of others. So I'll just use your crit then, for this. Cheers. Thanks for your time on this lost cause! I saw what you meant re the manager. It is a repeat so not needed. Back to my over-worked drawing board. Am startin to think I'll never get it. But I'll keep trying. bri
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 24, 2013, 05:43:47 PM
F&*^%G HELL! I don't even know how to swear properly on here. ;D
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: 510bhan on February 24, 2013, 05:48:26 PM
Take it slowly. Look at what Ma, Wolfe and Phil have said/suggested. What have they done? Where have they made changes? Why have they made changes? How did they effect those changes?  ;)

Original:

I was a Night-Club bouncer in my early twenties. I had women falling for me regularly. This isn't a boast. I think the idea of going out with a bouncer may have been the main attraction, or they got in the Night-club without paying. Either way, it seemed to be girl-heaven for me. But I digress. One night a gorgeous feller came in, and later in the night we got talking. He was a foreign exchange student from . . . one of the colonies, I think? He had a beautiful toned athletic body, with curly tousled blond hair and a great personality. He dressed casually but I could see by the way he comported himself that he'd thought about his dress sense and everything he had on probably felt right for him. He'd had an interesting life, but he wasn't a blow-hard as most of the guys were in those days.

First edit/rough (changing all telling to showing):

I bounced at a nightclub. Women fell for me regularly. It sounds like boasting. Sure. But landing the bouncer for a little hot-and-heavy scored big points. Course, free admission to the club brought benefits too. Wall-to-wall breasts worked for me. But that's what made what happened surprising. One night, this guy showed. You know his kind. Gun-slinging swagger with a Hollywood hard-body and a Paul Newman face.

Second run/rearrange:

Bouncing at a bar with wall-to-wall tits has its benefits. Of course, you scored easy. It happens. That's why what happened next surprised me. One night, this guy showed. You know the kind. Gun-slinging swagger with a Hollywood hard-body and a Paul Newman face.

Third run/refocus with voice:

Bouncing at a bar with wall-to-wall tits has its benefits. 'Course, you scored. Regular, no doubt. But that night surprised me. That's the night he showed. You know the type. Gun-slinging swagger with a Hollywood hard-body and a Paul Newman face.

Polish/Add style:

Bouncing at a bar with wall-to-wall tits has its benefits. 'Course, I scored. Regular, sure enough. But that night . . . that night he showed. You know the type. Gun-slinging swagger, Hollywood hard-body, and a Paul Newman face.

Trouble.

Run-down:

Bouncing at a bar (alliteration) with wall-to-wall tits (imagery) has its benefits (rhyming alliteration). 'Course, (dialect - indirect showing) I scored. Regular, sure enough (showing dialect - indirect alliteration between scored and sure). But that night . . . that night he showed (intentional repetition, voice, mystery to make the reader keep reading - He who?). You know the type. (Indirect showing - causes reader to imagine the 'type' beforehand) Gun-slinging swagger, (alliteration and showing personality with the walk alone), Hollywood hard-body (imagery, alliteration), and a Paul Newman face (direct showing example with minimal detail because of reference).

Trouble. (micro-cliffhanger, suspense)

Finished:

Bouncing at a bar with wall-to-wall tits has its benefits. 'Course, I scored. Regular, sure enough. But that night . . . that night he showed. You know the type. Gun-slinging swagger, Hollywood hard-body, and a Paul Newman face.

Trouble.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was a night-club bouncer in my early twenties.

Phil puffed out his chest and flicked a stray hair from his Burtons suit. The birds are going to love me tonight. He blew a kiss to his reflection in the ticket booth window.

1. He thinks he's irresistible.
2. Vane and proud of his appearance.

The manager sauntered over to the nightclub entrance. "Oi, Prince Charming, I'm letting the punters in."

3. His age range.

"Yes, Boss." Heat crept up his cheeks.

4. Embarrassment and not confident with authority.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I got a bit confused with the mix of third-person narrative and first-person internalised thoughts. Not so much showing as puzzling.

Eying his appearance in the entrance doorway-glass, smoothing a fleck of lint from his shoulder.
I know you think you're showing us what he's doing - but this is still telling. Instead of reporting what he's looking at, why not allow the internalised dialogue do it all for you?

'Hiya, handsome. Ready to rumba? Ooh - a bit of lint on the old shoulder pads there. Have I still got it? Of course I do.  Who can resist this body, these looks, the free passes?'

Most readers will have figured out he's admiring his reflection. . .

"Oi! Arse-hole, when you can tear yourself away from admiring yourself, we've got a club to open!"
. . . so if we already know he's admiring himself you don't need to have the manager spell it out for us again. Agreed?

The Manager's caustic voice shocked him into movement, he hadn't heard him coming up behind him. Bugger, that'd be another demerit on his record.

If you now intend switching to a third-person narrative rather than internalised dialogue you have to be especially careful of telling everything. I'd say that the first sentence is 100% telling - and the second is distracting and borderline authorial intrusion. A demerit for looking at himself in the window?

He flicked his unfinished cigarette into the gutter and gave the manager a shit-eating grin.
Yes sir, yes sir, three bags full, sir.

As I suspected, the rest is rather a muddled mixture of statements and more internalised thoughts.

He started unbolting the doors, mentally checking out the local tarts waiting to get in. Who's the lucky girl tonight then? One little blonde definitely liking the look of him, giving him the eye. On her own, no over-clingy mates to get rid of, make-up applied a little too carefully, gagging for it. She's got her best clobber on, a right tidy little package. He threw the doors wide to let the herd in, "Evening Ladies, Welcome to Paradise!"
The blonde still giving him the eye, passing him offered, "Aye aye, ow are ya?"
Oh God, why can't I get the whole package, with these girls? Good looks, fabulous body, with a nice plummy voice that makes you want to listen when she says anything. With not just your ears pricking up . . .

Personally I think this scene works best if you stick with his internalised thoughts. At least then you don't need to tell us you're checking out the tarts as you check them out (which is what you have done here more or less) or inform us how one blonde gives you/him the eye (twice) before showing us how she goes about giving you/him the eye.
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 24, 2013, 06:17:52 PM
Right! Let's get started. Unbolt the doors, step back, don't want to be mowed down in the rush. Look at that dark-haired young-ish one. She's pressing her boobs up against the glass. I'll have to check her I.D. She might be trying too hard. I don't want to lose my licence-to-bounce again. Wow, she's gorgeous, that little blonde near the door definitely likes the look of me, that's the third time she's checked me over. Stand up a bit taller son, let her see the muscles. On her own. Bonus. No over-clingy mates to get rid of, make-up applied a little too carefully, gagging for it. She's got her best clobber on, a right tidy little package. Adjust the tie, make sure it's on straight. Stand silent and mysterious, adds to the pull. Wait for it. . . wait for it. . . then.
"Evening Ladies, Welcome to Paradise!"
The blonde, still eying him up, taking her time to pass offers,
"Aye aye, ow are ya?"

Oh God, what a gob! Why can't I for once get the whole package with these girls? Good looks, fabulous body, with a nice plummy voice that makes you want to listen when she says anything. With not just your ears pricking up . . .

Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: 510bhan on February 24, 2013, 06:27:19 PM
We haven't even got to the interesting bloke, which the story is about, as you've now taken so long with the intro about being a bouncer.
Remember your original and Wolfe's take on it?

I was a Night-Club bouncer in my early twenties. I had women falling for me regularly. This isn't a boast. I think the idea of going out with a bouncer may have been the main attraction, or they got in the Night-club without paying. Either way, it seemed to be girl-heaven for me. But I digress. One night a gorgeous feller came in, and later in the night we got talking. He was a foreign exchange student from . . . one of the colonies, I think? He had a beautiful toned athletic body, with curly tousled blond hair and a great personality. He dressed casually but I could see by the way he comported himself that he'd thought about his dress sense and everything he had on probably felt right for him. He'd had an interesting life, but he wasn't a blow-hard as most of the guys were in those days. 152 words of tell.

Bouncing at a bar with wall-to-wall tits has its benefits. 'Course, I scored. Regular, sure enough. But that night . . . that night he showed. You know the type. Gun-slinging swagger, Hollywood hard-body, and a Paul Newman face. 39 words of show.


Right! Let's get started. Unbolt the doors, step back, don't want to be mowed down in the rush. Look at that dark-haired young-ish one. She's pressing her boobs up against the glass. I'll have to check her I.D. She might be trying too hard. I don't want to lose my licence-to-bounce again. Wow, she's gorgeous, that little blonde near the door definitely likes the look of me, that's the third time she's checked me over. Stand up a bit taller son, let her see the muscles. On her own. Bonus. No over-clingy mates to get rid of, make-up applied a little too carefully, gagging for it. She's got her best clobber on, a right tidy little package. Adjust the tie, make sure it's on straight. Stand silent and mysterious, adds to the pull. Wait for it. . . wait for it. . . then.  {it's an awful lot of his thinking . . . couldn't you grab a more succinct image?}"Evening Ladies, Welcome to Paradise!"

The blonde, still eying him up, taking her time to pass offers, "Aye aye, ow are ya?" [keep the dialogue on the line with the speaker it is attributed to]

Oh God, what a gob! Why can't I for once get the whole package with these girls? Good looks, fabulous body, with a nice plummy voice that makes you want to listen when she says anything. With not just your ears pricking up . . .


Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 24, 2013, 06:42:14 PM
hmmmm? Funny day today? I've been beaten. Shouted at(I imagine). Pulled hither and thither. Trying to please EVERYONE! Am done! I'll restrict myself to the games and the funnies, that way my plague-like posts won't affect the proper writers here! (laughing as I type)

Seriously though, I've taken enough of your valuable time with something I'm just not getting. Am not giving up. I just think I'll keep back and let others have a go. I really really do appreciate all your efforts. But, I'm no good at it. I can't do it, yet. When I do, you'll be the first to know(actually I hope I'll be the first to know, but somehow, I doubt it?)

Phil before you start spouting that I'm feeling sorry for myself, let me assure you I'm not! I just need more than usual time to get this and I'm taking up too much of yours and the rest of the guys. It's not fair to others more worthy of your efforts.
There! I can go to the Bar now and for the first time, I think I'll have a pint.  Drinks are on me if anyone wants one or three! Cheers, Bri.
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: 510bhan on February 24, 2013, 06:46:51 PM
 :D :D :D :D :D

In your efforts to make more 'show' instead of 'tell', you ended up with a lot of waffle when all that was needed was a subtle and succinct way of getting across that he was bouncer with plenty of willing and available female flesh at hand. ;)
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 24, 2013, 06:54:27 PM
I know love, but not only did I get lost in it, I didn't even get to the good bit! There was tongue lashing and stuff in it! Eurgh! I just remembered it was a guy! ;D It was getting so I couldn't remember me name! Sorry lovey, seems you wasted your time Actually, it wasn't a total waste, i suppose. I learned some more things, just not the ability to use em. . . yet? That's all. there's a free drink or more in the bar for all your efforts. xbx
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: 510bhan on February 24, 2013, 07:45:38 PM
Siobhan was only twenty-two when she started work as a bouncer at a busy city nightclub. What's important here? Age -- as a general thing, 22 shows she got her cert early on so must be pretty smart or driven to this sort of career. Anyone outside of the security industry probably wouldn't get that though, so the focus for the reader is that she is pretty young [work that through visuals] and works the door as a bouncer. What does a bouncer do? Use some of the tasks a bouncer has to perform to illustrate the job. Checking bags for illicit booze, actually checking for weapons and any obvious drugs, keeping the crowd in a good mood so they can enjoy the club when they get in, keeping them safe and moving them on making sure they meet the dress code. You could use any of these things instead of saying her job title.

She liked the choice of men that queued up outside on weekend nights. Here we have some information about how she passes the time while on duty. How do we know she liked the choice of men -- probably chatted some up, exchanged a lecherous/appreciative glance or two at some particularly buff bodies, restrained her desire to squeeze the muscly bum in tight jeans/wondered if the guy trained in the same gym as jean Claude Van Damme. Any of those things could be used [not all of them].

Her boss was always on her case.  Use the word 'again' in a some barked order for a menial duty the boss gives her. Have her dream of running her own place and not being a dickhead like her boss . . .  she'd never [cite an example of his horrid behaviour] in her club. 

She got fed up with his advances and then his temper when she refused him and he called her a dyke. Give some body language to demonstrate the strained relations between boss and bouncer, back it up with some dialogue to illustrate the tone.



All of the above sentences are obvious 'tell'. The explanation afterwards gives an idea how it might be better 'shown' by using examples which ought to include the senses . . . fragrant aftershave, beery breath, nasal twang, throaty rasp, salty sweat, kebab and onion aromas seeping through the crowd, exhaust fumes of waiting taxis tainting the night air, strobe/neon lights, drunks singing, dogs barking, glass breaking, crush of bodies as groups squeezed past . . . Whatever is decided ought to be short and sweet, to the point and moving things along.  ;) ;)   
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 24, 2013, 09:23:19 PM
See? The strange thing is. When you put it like that I can actually see it. But as soon as I have an empty page, that I have to fill, I go blank and start telling. every time. Ma asked for the opener to be done. I did it. And it was shocking. I tried to do something fresher, she said no am not doing some other work then went off and did someone else's work anyway. Not gettin at ma or anyone else. But I got so confused, it wasn't fun anymore, just a chore. I was doing it to try and please. But not for me, everyone else. You've been the soul of patience with me. Guiding me step-by-step. And still, I can't get it.

I'll just toddle along, bit by bit in the hopes that one day it'll just "click" and finally I'll be able to write something worth reading. Maybe I should just accept the fact that I'm "fick?" ha ha. I'm goin to bed, long day and all that. I'll give it another go tomorrow, with a fresh pair of eyes. Gnight mate. x
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: Alice, a Country Gal on February 24, 2013, 10:03:34 PM
Brian, one problem with your learning what others are trying to tell you may be that you are trying too hard. Print out one of your stories, put it away and do not even look at it for at least 3 weeks.

While it is simmering in a bottom drawer (or where ever), read. Read good books, not the kind you might pick up on a whim - pick a good, well written book and stick with it.

When you go back to your be sure you have a colored pen in hand (I prefer Green), read your work aloud to yourself - don't rush through it, read each word out loud.

That's where the colored pen comes in handy. When a word sounds wrong or you find yourself stumbling over a word, phrase or even a sentence or paragraph - circle or underline them so you can come back to them later to see if you can make changes to improve.

If the work is litter with "ed" - "ing" - and so on, try rewording to cut some of it out and make it active (show) instead of placid (tell).

FYI - when doing a first draft of a story most people know edits will be needed to make improvements. So don't beat yourself up if you can't make it perfect on the first go round. It's nothing for me to edit even a short story multiple times before letting others see it. And then as soon as I send it off, more often than not I see something I wish I could change.

 
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 25, 2013, 07:22:50 AM
When a word sounds wrong or you find yourself stumbling over a word, phrase or even a sentence or paragraph - circle or underline them so you can come back to them later to see if you can make changes to improve.

This is my problem though. I don't know which ones are wrong. To me they all look right. I'll work on it and try again. Later, when I've decided what I want to do. Thanks for the helpful tip. I'm gonna go look at all the link-thingy's in more depth and see if they'll help me more. Thanks. b
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: Lin on February 25, 2013, 07:54:28 AM
Brian do you own a Thesaurus?  There is probably one on your computer but having a paperback copy in your writer's library can be helpful if you take your work away from the computer.  I am editing at the moment and I have two copies, one is a phone app and very useful indeed and the other is a Roget's Thesaurus which I use as well.  It will help you to learn stronger words and give you some ideas. A dictionary is just as useful too. If you get chance pop into your local bookshop and buy one.  I cannot see myself being a writer without it!

Lin x

Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: 510bhan on February 25, 2013, 08:25:30 AM
ma's original exercise . . .

Telling indicators: Was, were, had, there, it, lys, have been.

Your first para.

I was a Night-Club bouncer in my early twenties.
What other word/phrase/expression could replace I was? Does the whole sentence need a tweak to better set up a picture of the character minding the door of a nightclub? What could the bouncer be doing? Think of a game of charades and how you would act it out for people to guess.

I had women falling for me regularly.
A bit of an obvious statement. If it is a regular happening use the word usual/again/frequent/regular in a description of a woman falling for you/throwing herself at you. Again -- think of a little scene playing out where you'd twig on what the femme fatale was up to. Did she wink at you? Did she give your bum a squeeze as she passed by too close pressing her body against yours?

This isn't a boast.
Then make it sound as if it isn't.

I think the idea of going out with a bouncer may have been the main attraction, or they got in the Night-club without paying. Either way, it seemed to be girl-heaven for me.
Play a scene with a chancy young woman trying to get in for free, use some dialogue.


Summarised like this by Wolfe: Bouncing at a bar with wall-to-wall tits has its benefits.'Course, I scored. Regular, sure enough.

But I digress. One night a gorgeous feller came in, and later in the night we got talking. He was a foreign exchange student from . . . one of the colonies, I think?
How else could we 'see' this young foreign exchange student? Maybe give him a South African accent when he asks how much the admission price is or he is exceptionally polite, which set him apart from the rest of the rabble.

He had a beautiful toned athletic body, with curly tousled blond hair and a great personality.
Let the reader see this body through his movement -- how he danced, lifted a glass, sat on a bar stool -- something that would allow you to paint his elegant movement. How can we see his great personality . . . you/we've only just seen him. Is he polite, friendly -- show this in some sort of thing he does.

He dressed casually but I could see by  the way he comported himself that he'd thought about his dress sense and everything he had  on probably felt right for him.
Let us see how his clothes enhance his appearance, perhaps include what you see as a well-practised move on his part to best show his muscles/smile/sparkling eyes/whatever.

He'd had an interesting life, but he wasn't  a blow-hard as most of the guys were in those days.
How do we/you know so much so soon? Have you overheard him talking to the barman or other guys? If this isn't in sequence -- don't use it. You've already explained he attracted your attention.

He'd engaged my interest by being funny. This always attracted me to girls back then.


Summarised like this by Wolfe: But that night . . . that night he showed. You know the type. Gun-slinging swagger, Hollywood hard-body, and a Paul Newman face.  


Once you've addressed all those little niggles to rid them of the telling curse words, review the sentences and see if they move us forward closer to the 'kiss', which is the big deal of this story. If they don't do their job get rid of them.

Wolfe's take: Bouncing at a bar with wall-to-wall tits has its benefits. 'Course, I scored. Regular, sure enough. But that night . . . that night he showed. You know the type. Gun-slinging swagger, Hollywood hard-body, and a Paul Newman face.
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: Wolfe on February 25, 2013, 08:56:39 AM
On that note, I'm stealing that arched eyebrow sentence. It's genius.

You know, I said it before, and I'll say it again: I wouldn't waste my time if you didn't show talent.


Oh he was gay. Not probably. Definitely. The longing looks. The sipping instead of gulping. The arched brow that delivered each verdict.

Troll. Bear. Rough trade. Bi-sexual but doesn't know it yet. Not bad. Do-able. Yummy. Take Me Now!

And then he turned that eyebrow toward me.



That's my voice and style. Now watch this:


I could tell from his mannerisms he was gay. The longing looks. The sipping instead of gulping his drink like a drowning man. Checking out the fellers as they passed. That arched eyebrow delivering the internal verdict.


That's your voice and style. All I did was refine and polish it. Smooth out the rough edges. That's all. And, let me tell you, if you opened your novel with it, I'd definitely keep reading.

It takes time to spin straw into gold. Ask any member here to show you their first attempts. I bet they'd rather swallow battery acid than face that embarrassment.

Quit being so hard on yourself. If this shit was easy, everyone would do it. Everyone tries it because they think it is.

It's not. It takes time, talent, and training to get it. You have a leg up from most. You have talent. You just need to let time and training take effect.

And don't get sappy on me. I'm still a bastard. And apparently not helpful either.  ;D
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 25, 2013, 09:07:34 AM
Gotta hand it to Wolfe! His take on it was looked brilliant! This is what I aspire to. Yours was had a look that said Author. Ds's spectactularly amazed me for such a short piece. I get these shvon, I really do.

But the thing is. What you's all describe is what you's want to say. All I wanted was to write about something that happened to me and something that could've happened. It went from my story to all of yours. That's not to say that all your stories had nothing to say,(the techie stuff offered was amazing!) just not what I wanted to say.
I really need to decide if this is for me or not? I'm having serious doubts. I came to this site cos of the shit poems I wrote and then moved on to the shorty's, which seemed much better. I think I probably just got lucky. You's all write so beautifully and it's what I think I want. But for one reason or another, this ain't fun anymore. And I really feel I'm not being fair to all of you's, monopolising your time in this way. Maybe you's see me as a nice distraction from your more serious work? You's all remember what it was like learning to write and all you want to do is pass the knowledge on. This is fine, but you have to pass it on to someone who takes it in. I try, I really try and I end up lookin stoopid. Because in some aspects, I am stupid. But I will get better(not sure if I mean better at writing or better at being stupid?), it'll just take me longer. But like Lin said, and has been said elsewhere, this isn't the place to learn. I'll still be here for the fun and games, the competitions and the odd fiddle with someones work. But I won't be posting my stuff, until I feel it's good enough, for me. Then I may post. I'm not giving in. I will write better, but at a slower rate than all of you. Phew! that's a lot for a short answer. Sorry if I ranted a bit. I feel better already. ;D Thanks chuck. x


came back to say to Wolfe, Genius? ya kiddin right? btw, I've been watching your crits(oh yes, I told you I value em) Who are you and where's the real Wolfe? ha ha. Thanks for all the help mate. Really. And I'm really sorry about. . . you know. . . the. . . .thingy. . . last year!  ;D I've made my decision and am choosing to learn, learn,learn. Just not monopolising your time(s). Cheers. b. . . . . . .Genius? Who woulda guessed. . . .? ;D
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: 510bhan on February 25, 2013, 09:33:48 AM
But that's the thing Brian . . . you want to SAY [aka TELL] us what happened.

You have to make it more reader-friendly and to do that you have to adopt the techniques we have wittered on about. At the moment the story-telling verges on boring because of its passive tone and lack of actions by the charcters involved for the reader to see the scene/story unfold.

You signpost it all. Now I'm going to unfold this bit for you and when I do you will see the man with the big beer belly laughing, because that was what he did back then. Are you ready? There. There's the man -- doesn't he look like a fun guy? ::) ::)


Take another look at the post I made before Wolfe's latest one [2 back] and answer those questions I posed  -- based on your writing -- and come up with more read-friendly images for us IN YOUR WORDS. :)
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 25, 2013, 10:22:03 AM
ok. last time tho. eating at the min, back in 15.
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 25, 2013, 11:01:14 AM
"Bouncing isn't easy you know. No by God. It looks easy cos as I'm standin here looking all relaxed, but inside I'm like a coiled spring waiting for release. Just because you're standing here with me, admiring me, I saw you. Don't deny it. Hey it's ok, am used to it. But it doesn't mean I'm not working. I am. I just look like I'm not." He heard the sound of raised voices and glass breaking, turning from. . .? For the life of him, he couldn't remember her bloody name. . . ?
"Whoa! Duty calls I'll be right back, darlin."
Some nob-ead makin his mouth go at the bar-maid. "Problem mate?"
hmm? short feller, bout 11 stone, way too many drinks, no problem. But still keep sharp cos you never know.
"When I need another drink? Ah'll shout ya over ya f***in penguin, till then why don't you go an F**k off!"
Oh Gawd! A writer! You can tell them a friggin mile off, and there were a few of them in tonight. It's always the same with those lot. They write a best-seller on fighting and sword-play and they think they can fight the world!
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 25, 2013, 11:40:12 AM
I'm stealing that arched eyebrow sentence.

Try sittin in a pub/club with a couple of gay guys but watch them as they watch the fellers passing and this is what they do. I used to say to them I was nervous bout gettin up to get the drinks, in case they were eying me up. They said no, you're not our type. I asked what type is that? They all, to a man said, "gay!"

You can't have it Wolfe, you can borrow it, but I may need it myself later some time. ;D
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: hillwalker3000 on February 25, 2013, 12:56:39 PM
I assume the first paragraph of dialogue in #86 is the bouncer chatting-up his latest groupie (in his head, maybe, rather than out loud). But, wow, 66 words to tell her his job is more difficult than it looks. Is he really trying to bore the pants off her? Well. . . maybe.

You've been given a lot of advice about how to engage the reader by showing rather than telling - as well as writing tight. Well this is nothing like your previous posts - perhaps you dumped them and decided to start again but there was some good stuff hidden away. Better, in my opinion, than this clumsy opening. I can't even work out whether it's a first-person narrative or third-person - you seem to switch half way through.

I'm getting the impression (like with the coal wagons piece and the  swearing story) that you re-post as soon as you get the latest critiques from us - editing off the cuff and changing things purely to please us rather than yourself. That's fatal because you end up pleasing nobody and lose sight of the original plot. 75% of creative writing has to be spontaneous - but yours can't possibly be. More of a knee-jerk reaction than absorbing what you learn and making use of it.

One thing I find when I write a story is that it's virtually impossible to edit it on-screen. I don't know why, but it's not until I print it out that I see the glaring mistakes, the typos, the redundant words, repetitions, and those bits where I tell too much. I also find it helps if I put it away for a day or two then go back to it with fresh eyes. That way there's a chance I might have forgotten some of what I've written so it's almost like looking at someone else's words.

Constantly changing what you have written every ten minutes is never going to work. It's an useful exercise, perhaps, to see what others think about what you have written, but trying to rewrite the same piece over and over again in immediate response to the latest feedback is crazy.

H3K
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 25, 2013, 01:12:02 PM
I rest my case. This is the point I'm trying to make. Tell the truth Phil. Look at all the help, tips, links and advice given on these threads. A normal person would have got it by now. Wouldn't they? I'm not gettin it! I'm either abnormally stupid or way ahead of you's and am waitin for the evolutionary leap you's have to take to catch me up! ;D  I tried it and I failed. . .This time. Will leave it awhile and then try again, in the future. Have been given, over the last few months, quite a few links to see, so I'll go do them and try to learn. Thanks for trying. bri.
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: hillwalker3000 on February 25, 2013, 01:31:34 PM
To echo Lin's advice: We're here as friends not teachers. You could do a lot worse than join a local Creative Writing course (evening classes or whatever). That's what started me writing 4 years ago (and look at me now!).

H
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 25, 2013, 01:38:34 PM
We've visited this comment before, you and I phil. Will look and see if there's any courses near me.  :) Am still determined to engage you with something interesting I've written. Even if I have to beat you about the face and body with a rolled up manuscript. Don't ask me if there'll be words on the ms? I won't know till then!  ;D
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: 510bhan on February 25, 2013, 01:51:46 PM
Now that you know a heap of groovy writing terms and have faced the Wolfe, I doubt if going back to school holds anything daunting for you, Brian. ;) When you first joined, you said you'd tried another site that was obsessed with grammar and spelling etc. I think perhaps that was just lack of confidence -- and now . . . well, you can hold your head up high and mix it with the best of them without feeling inadequate. Look how much you have learnt since you joined here. ;) ;) ;)
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 25, 2013, 02:21:49 PM
Yup. Been there. Done that.  ;D I do feel more confident round you lot, and I do think I've made new friends. I also think I've made progress. I want more though. I'll get there in the end, I'm sure. I'll still be doin everythin else I do on the site(bein cheeky, buggin people, tryin to be clever, humorous even) I just won't be postin "stuff" for a while, that's all. Not goin anywhere.  ;D Thanks for all the adv guys. xbx
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: Dawn on February 25, 2013, 03:30:18 PM
Do you read a lot, Brian? If so are you reading different types of books? There are lots of unusual styles/pov's out there that might be worth looking into. Just an idea.
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 25, 2013, 07:13:34 PM
Hiya Dawn, yeah I read a lot but mostly fiction. I am looking out for the Kenneth Williams Diaries. I'd love to read those. since I've been writing this last year, we moved house and I put away Steve King's "On Writing," and so far I've not been able to find it. I think I really need to get it and read it. I read news articles. Many's the time I've had to clean me pc screen as I've over-reacted to a lying politicians words! laf. I like to read all the stories on here. Watch them develop and hope some of the writers skill rubs off. xbx
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: Wolfe on February 25, 2013, 08:04:46 PM
I'm stealing that arched eyebrow sentence.

Try sittin in a pub/club with a couple of gay guys but watch them as they watch the fellers passing and this is what they do. I used to say to them I was nervous bout gettin up to get the drinks, in case they were eying me up. They said no, you're not our type. I asked what type is that? They all, to a man said, "gay!"

You can't have it Wolfe, you can borrow it, but I may need it myself later some time. ;D

I hope the gays don't make you nervous anymore. You do realize this business links with Hollywood and all the theatrics included. I learned all my fabulous terminology from friends who fancied a little man fu . . . er, fun. Yes, fun. That's what I was going to say.  8)

And I am stealing it.

You owe me.  :D
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 25, 2013, 08:09:35 PM
in that case, it's yours. But now we're quits. You little F.unn.er! (I knew what you were gonna say?) ;D
Title: Re: Been There Done That. 1068 words. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.
Post by: bri h on February 28, 2013, 08:28:23 AM
Just fiddling with it.(No joke or smut intended!;D)

It's not easy being a Night-Club bouncer. It's not that glamorous at all. But when you're in your early twenties like I was at the time, everything seemed easy, including the lasses. Women threw themselves at me, and I put up no resistance. I'm not naieve to think I was the sole fascination. I think it could've possibly been the free admission to the club that may have been part of the attraction. Who am I kidding? It was the main reason.
On a monday night which is usually Stripper-and-Stag-Nights, a strange thing happened to me that at any other time I would've said "No Way!"

Most of the people who came to those shows are usually all in by eight pm. As the last few slightly-worse-for-wear patrons staggered in, I heard a screech of tyres coming from the car-park underneath the club. Because of the rabbit-warren of lanes down there we'd get the odd visit from the local boy-racers, throwing Dads car about as if they were on some imaginary race-circuit, but having to get home by nine pm because they have school or college in the morning. This is what I thought the noise appeared to be.

As I turned from the open Club door a Ford Capri went cruising slowly by and parked a few bays away from the entrance. It had a sound all of its own. More like a vibration than a sound. A young feller nonchalantly got out of the car. It ticked as it started to cool, and looking about him like he was checking everything out, he locked it and walked towards me. He had an air about him that didn't seem like swagger, but something else I couldn't quite put my finger on? Now i don't want you to get the wrong idea or anything? I'm not gay or owt. I can just see when something or someone is beautiful, and this guy was.

He had this look about him you only ever see on the telly or in the movies. Tanned, chiselled- complexion, nice dresser, and a confidence that just seemed to ooze from his pores. All this I observed as he strode confidently through the foyer up to where we all stood. I wish I had a gait like that. I take little steps, like taking little timid bites out of my surroundings. He, on the other hand greedily took huge mouthfuls of the world by taking giant strides. I think at this point I briefly fell in love.

Title: Re: Been There Done That. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.#15, 428 words
Post by: hillwalker3000 on February 28, 2013, 09:43:03 AM
Ok - the usual 'slash and burn' if I might be allowed.

It's not easy being a Night-Club bouncer. It's not that glamorous at all.
Two statements that suggest there's a link - but 'easy' and 'glamorous' are not the same. If your second sentence had been 'It's not that easy at all the pairing might have made more sense.
Perhaps you can change the second to 'It's not that glamorous either.'
See what I mean?

But when you're in your early twenties like I was at the time, You're getting too close to the reader again - bad habit I was in my early twenties everything seemed easy, including the lasses. Women threw themselves at me, and I put up no resistance. I'm not naieve naive enough(?) to think I was the sole fascination Bit awkward I was irresistible (?). I think it could've possibly been the free admission to the club that may might have been part of the attraction. Who am I kidding? It was the main reason only attraction.

On a monday night which is usually Stripper-and-Stag-Nights, a strange thing happened to me that at any other time I would've said "No Way!"

Why do we need this prologue? If something happened why not just get on with telling us what it was? And opening with 'On a Monday night' suggests this 'strange thing' happened every Monday.

Most of the people who came to those shows are usually all in by eight pm. As the last few slightly-worse-for-wear patrons staggered in, I heard a screech of tyres coming from the car-park underneath the club. Because of the rabbit-warren of lanes down there we'd get the odd visit from the local boy-racers, throwing Dads car about as if they were on some imaginary race-circuit, but having to get home by nine pm because they have school or college in the morning. This is what I thought the noise appeared to be.

Sorry - but most of this paragraph is back-story that has nothing to do with what follows. I think the 'boy-racers' can be introduced much more concisely as an excuse for you to go investigating.
Something like. . .

Monday nights were usually Stripper-and-Stag-Nights and the club normally filled up by eight o'clock. So when I heard the screech of tyres from the car-park beneath the club I assumed it was some boy-racer taking his dad's car for a spin before bed time.
But as I turned from the open Club door a Ford Capri went cruising slowly by and parked a few bays away from the entrance. It had a sound all of its own. More like a vibration than a sound. A young feller nonchalantly got out of the car. It ticked as it started to cool, and looking about him like he was checking everything out, is he nonchalant or furtive? he locked it and walked towards me. It's a heck of a long sentence describing someone getting out of a car! He had an air about him that didn't seem like swagger, but something else I couldn't quite put my finger on? Now i don't want you to get the wrong idea or anything? I'm not gay or owt. Authorial intrusion - why are you telling us this, and why would anyone care? I can just see when something or someone is beautiful, and this guy was.

He had this look about him you only ever see on the telly or in the movies. Tanned, chiselled- complexion, nice dresser, and a confidence that just seemed to ooze from his pores. All this I observed as he He strode confidently through the foyer up to where we all stood. Until I re-read this I thought you were still down in the subterranean car park. See how that boy-racer paragraph almost messed up the plot? I wish I had a gait like that. I take little steps, like taking little timid bites out of my surroundings. He, on the other hand greedily took huge mouthfuls of the world taking giant strides.  Not sure we need the last 3 words but. . . Probably some of the best writing you've graced these pages with so far! Showing (gasp) rather than Telling! I think at this point I briefly fell in love.


This definitely gets better as it goes along. Just a case of chipping away at the irrelevancies and uncovering the guts of the story underneath.

H3K
Title: Re: Been There Done That. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.#15, 428 words
Post by: bri h on February 28, 2013, 10:47:10 AM
Bri retired from the thread for a brief moment to wipe the tears of relief and gratitude from his eyes. . . .

Cheers Phil. It's nice to finally receive the recognition of my work that I've WORKED SO BLOODY HARD FOR!  ;D ;D 

I wasn't sure about the wording of naievety(can't seem to get that bloody word to look right!) so I left it as is. Thanks for the suggy. I suppose the bits you've generously pointed out to me are fatty tissue per se, but I felt I should produce some flourish to make the story more interesting. I'm thinking of extending this a bit to include a few other funnies in it, purely to do more showing. So I have to leave the Stag's n Strippers in for now. I'll think about it some more. I'll copy and paste tonight and edit and see what I think of it then? Not promising to pare all of it. Just what looks right, but still within the bounds of your crit. Thanks again, as usual.
(This good crit wouldn't have anything to do with me diggin you in the ribs the other day on anothers crit, would it? I wouldn't want to feel like you'd been intimidated into a more positive crit!) ;D ;D ;D ;D
(asks the guys nervously, is he laughing?) ;D
Title: Re: Been There Done That. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.#15, 428 words
Post by: hillwalker3000 on February 28, 2013, 11:42:06 AM
(This good crit wouldn't have anything to do with me diggin you in the ribs the other day on anothers crit, would it? I wouldn't want to feel like you'd been intimidated into a more positive crit!) ;D ;D ;D ;D
(asks the guys nervously, is he laughing?) ;D

No - I have ice running through my veins and a heart of granite, so no amount of nudging or weeping has any effect on me. You could, however, try financial incentives. . .
. . . and if you notice, I have kept the reference to Stags-n-Strippers. Just trimmed some of the fat.

H
Title: Re: Been There Done That. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.#15, 428 words
Post by: bri h on February 28, 2013, 01:00:49 PM
I see what you mean with the cut re the boy racers phil, kinda like. . . .I was about to go and investigate the noise, but I stopped just inside the door as a ford capri emerged from the shadows under the Club. . . .like that, do you think? "Ice-water!"  Yeah ice water with a touch of Vodka in it mate! Cheers.
Title: Re: Been There Done That. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.#15, 428 words
Post by: hillwalker3000 on February 28, 2013, 01:04:34 PM
Yes. I understand what you actually did. It's just all that stuff about the car park underneath the night club which doesn't really add anything except confusion to the scenario.

H3K

PS - Mine's a SOCO rather than vodka if you're buying ;D
Title: Re: Been There Done That. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.#15, 428 words
Post by: bri h on February 28, 2013, 01:18:02 PM
First off. I'm celebrating, why'm I buying?  ;D

Oh go on then, get whatever you want in the bar later. But WORK first! ha ha.

I suppose the only thing I can say bout some of the superfluous detail is that it kinda paints a picture of me, or the character in that place using the language and seeing some of the onerous duties, so you walk with him under the club and then back inside where "things" happen. At the moment, I like it. So I'm gonna keep it/them for a while. As you've said so often, this is your opinion after all and I always welcome it, but for now let me just say this. . . . .Prrrrppppppp!!(that looks more like a fart than a raspberry!) ;D
Title: Re: Been There Done That. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.#15, 428 words
Post by: bri h on February 28, 2013, 01:37:01 PM
Yes. I understand what you actually did. It's just all that stuff about the car park underneath the night club which doesn't really add anything except confusion to the scenario.

H3K

PS - Mine's a SOCO rather than vodka if you're buying ;D

Bit of a tall order. But I'll see Bones, am sure he can accomodate ya! Although what you're going to do wit a Scenes Of Crimes Officer is your business and yours only!  ;D ;D

Title: Re: Been There Done That. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.#15, 428 words
Post by: bri h on February 28, 2013, 08:04:56 PM
It's not easy being a Night-Club bouncer. It's not that glamorous either.
But in my early twenties everything seemed easy, including the lasses. Women threw themselves at me, and I put up no resistance. I'm not naive enough to think I was irresistible. I think it could've possibly been the free admission to the club that might have been part of the attraction. Who am I kidding? It was probably the only attraction.

Monday nights were Stripper-and-Stag-Nights, Most of the people who came to those shows were usually all in by eight pm. As the last few slightly-worse-for-wear patrons staggered in, I heard a screech of tyres coming from underneath the club. There's a rabbit-warren of lanes down below in the old car park, and we'd get the odd visit from the local boy-racers, throwing Dads car about as if they were on some imaginary race-circuit, but having to get home by nine pm curfew, ready for school or college in the morning. This is what I thought the noise appeared to be.

I felt duty-bound to go and take a look but as I was about to leave, muttering under my breath,
 why-do-we-get-all-the-shitty-jobs? a bright yellow Ford Capri emerged from the shadows and chugged by the door at the bottom of the stairs, cruising slowly by, swung round and parked a few bays away from the entrance. It had a sound all of its own. More like a vibration than a sound. The kind of noise you 'feel' before you hear. A young feller nonchalantly got out of the car, leaning, with one arm draped over the hood as he reached down and locked it. It ticked as it started to cool. He looked about him, like he was checking things out, almost drinking in the sights and sounds as if he'd never seen them before. The Town-Hall Clock in the distance, brightly lit-up and shining in the cool clear night sky. The environs of the club, looming in the shadows above his head, the hamburger stand in the little street opposite the club, its tantalising smells making my mouth water already.
Roll on breaktime, burger,onions and lashings of tommy sauce!. He finished the inspection of his surroundings and started walking towards me. He had an air about him that didn't seem like swagger, but something else? Something I couldn't quite put my finger on? Then I had it. He was gorgeous! I remember thinking. Gawd! I'm turning gay!

He had a look about him you only ever see on the telly or in the movies. Tanned, chiselled-complexion, nice dresser, and a confidence that seemed to ooze from his pores. All this I observed as He climbed confidently up the short flight of stairs, through the foyer past myself and the other people milling about, paid his money and entered the club. I enjoyed the simple almost voyeristic act of watching him walk. I wish I had a gait like that. I take little steps, like taking little timid bites out of my surroundings. He, on the other hand greedily took huge mouthfuls of the world, taking giant strides.

Is that too descriptive or wordy? I put the dialogue in to try it out. Any good, or not needed here? I need your advice as well. The part where he's describing what he's seeing, the Town Hall Clock bit. Is there a better way to descibe this? I've seen a few posters using "-" a lot to kind of extend a sentence in this way. Would that work do you think? Or is there a better way? I pared in places. Then found other trimmings and additions.  ;D
Title: Re: Been There Done That. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.#105, 549 words.
Post by: hillwalker3000 on March 01, 2013, 08:28:57 AM
It's better (as you no doubt know).
A couple of style issues and a wee bit of tightening (use or lose).

This sentence is more than 50 words long and mentions too many unrelated things - the lanes, the boy-racers, the curfew. . . I suggest you break it up and tighten:
There's a rabbit-warren of lanes down below in the old car park. (, and) We'd get the odd visit from the local boy-racers, throwing Dad's car about as if they were on some imaginary race-circuit. (, but having to get home by) But they were usually gone by nine pm curfew, tucked up in their beds ready for school or college in the morning.

Also this is a bit clumsy - This is what I thought the noise appeared to be.
I assumed they were responsible for the racket (?)


Another 55-word sentence follows -
I felt duty-bound . . . and parked a few bays away from the entrance.
- you really need to cut these into bite-size chunks.

Personally I would get rid of the underlined bit that follows. You're dragging the reader's focus away from this intriguing character and almost intruding on the scene for a cheap aside:
the hamburger stand in the little street opposite the club, its tantalising smells making my mouth water already.
Roll on breaktime, burger,onions and lashings of tommy sauce!.

Does the reader need to know any of this?

He had an air about him that didn't seem like swagger, but something else. (?) Something I couldn't quite put my finger on. (?)

Not sure why you're telling us you observed all this :
All this I observed as He climbed confidently up the short flight of stairs, through the foyer past myself me and the others in the foyer people milling about, paid his money and entered the club.
- if you hadn't observed it how could you be describing it?

Hope this helps.

Dialogue? I didn't see any (unless you mean the internalised dialogue - some which works, some which doesn't).

SOCO? - Southern Comfort, ye heathen!

H3K
Title: Re: Been There Done That. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.#105, 549 words.
Post by: bri h on March 01, 2013, 08:34:16 AM
Jaegermeister, ya bad-editor! ;D
Title: Re: Been There Done That. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.#105, 549 words.
Post by: bri h on March 01, 2013, 08:39:51 AM
Yeah, I see what you mean Phil. I didn't like the "This is what I thought the noise was," any more than you. Yerrrrrrrrroutttt! laf. I also like the fact that something seems to have clicked in my head now and I internalise the 'do' of it then put it down on the screen a bit more easily. Have you sent some form of knowledge-virus to my pc or summat?  ;D

I'm finding my own editing has changed a bit for the better as well. I see things a bit clearer. In no small way, thanks to you. Did you like the invite-verse?  ;D Cheers, Bri.
Title: Re: Been There Done That. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.#105, 549 words.
Post by: bob68 on March 02, 2013, 06:51:13 PM
I like this Bri. I see the corrections you made along the way and its much tighter. Your stuff is getting better each time. This has the makings of a good story no doubt. 
Title: Re: Been There Done That. Gay/Adult Themes. No swearing.#105, 549 words.
Post by: bri h on March 02, 2013, 06:54:34 PM
Did you read the first one bob? I did something different! (each to their own tastes and all that! laf)