My Writers Circle

Poets Corner => Review My Poetry => Topic started by: Victor on August 17, 2009, 10:18:06 AM

Title: frustration (profanity)
Post by: Victor on August 17, 2009, 10:18:06 AM
Removed due to language and lack of any poetic worth.
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: Mark H on August 17, 2009, 10:44:54 AM
I'm not a big fan of rhyming poetry but this works well.
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: eric on August 17, 2009, 10:46:20 AM
heh heh Mark.   :D

last line seems a bit telly to me ...
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: Victor on August 17, 2009, 10:56:52 AM
Quote
last line seems a bit telly to me ...

perhaps, should I change it to 'a mound of smouldering turd' ?  ;D
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: eric on August 17, 2009, 10:58:36 AM
turd seems a little telly to me ...
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: Victor on August 17, 2009, 11:36:08 AM
maybe I should  engage all the five senses ?

sight, smell, touch, sound........and......err...........taste.?

 ;D
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: Akeith (Gray) on August 17, 2009, 12:16:05 PM
This is funny. I'd leave out "taste" but that's just me.  :D
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: eric on August 17, 2009, 12:18:49 PM
taste.  interesting ... but "eat shit, eric" would still be a little telly, don't you think?  heh heh.  very good job.
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: Victor on August 18, 2009, 11:00:40 AM
thanks gray.... ;D

eric...thank you, too....don't ask me 'for what' ? ;D
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: eric on August 18, 2009, 11:03:01 AM
you better thank Mark or he'll pout
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: Victor on August 18, 2009, 11:06:35 AM
Quote
you better thank Mark or he'll pout

that second clause scares me....so yeah, thank you too, Mark  :D
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: Mark H on August 18, 2009, 12:41:10 PM
Quote
you better thank Mark or he'll pout

or worse ... weave you into a story, a horror story, a story where you get turned into a 40 something housewife with varicose veins.
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: Sleepy Sally on August 22, 2009, 07:16:04 AM
All poetry when so straight foward like this, sounds cool when it's short.
So this is pretty perfect, and all thanks to two types of curse words... I ddn't even know this was possible lol
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: Jade on August 22, 2009, 09:22:56 AM
Laughing myself into a frenzy..


Whahaha
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: Victor on August 22, 2009, 11:56:57 AM
thanks for the comments, Acquaria and Jade. :)

Title: Re: frustration
Post by: Biola on August 23, 2009, 02:02:46 PM
oops! yuck! the owls came for dinner and they served bats!
keel over in a faint!
I know which part of the street you were coming from?
how red did you get?
biola :o
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: Victor on August 24, 2009, 12:39:45 PM
oh....what was that.....? :o :-[ ;D
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: dcraigie on August 24, 2009, 03:34:02 PM
Interesting to note this poem has not been censored given scum erradiation was.

I am not in favour of any type of censorship and think  Scum erradication should have stayed.

Any poem has the potential to upset someone or find the subject matter distasteful I.e. cutting, sex  or the strong use of bad language but these appear to be OK yet scum  erradication is not hmmmmm.

  Its a slippery slope,  where will it all stop people should be free to decide what they read or not, if you dont like dont read it. If you are concerned about kids reading poems like Scum erad then what about this poem or those explicitly sexual or on cutting, there plenty on here, smacks of double standards.

The Internet has opened the box for all to look inside.



   
   

Title: Re: frustration
Post by: Hugh on August 24, 2009, 03:55:02 PM
Interesting to note this poem has not been censored given scum erradiation was. .      

What "poem"?  This is supposed to be a writers' site, not a lavatory wall.
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: Mark H on August 24, 2009, 05:35:00 PM
Quote
This is supposed to be a writers' site

and as such will have room for all kinds of stuff not just a subset as defined by those holier than thou types that think they know best.
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: eric on August 24, 2009, 05:45:14 PM
Indeed, Mark.  I would also like to point out that there are no obscene words in this poem.  The fuck and shit words are both expressions of frustration, not sexual or scatological references.  This poem is not abusive or degrading, and it is very funny.  It also evokes an emotion in the mind of the typical reader that is different from the words used on the page.  A successful poem, I'd say, by all accounts of interest to me.  In fact, a very good one.
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: Hugh on August 25, 2009, 05:22:01 AM
Sorry, I didnít realise you have to be one of the elite to be allowed to voice an opinion as to whether something is poetry or merely words arranged in a certain way.

And yes, Eric, they are Old English words going back at least to the sixteenth century in their present form. As you will know, fuck was considered taboo from then until the twentieth, when Ulysses, and particularly the Lady Chatterleyís Lover court case opened the floodgates for explicit sex and obscene language in published writing. The word was even excluded from all English language dictionaries until Penguin included it in 1965.   

I agree that the words have now become mere expletives, and remember with fondness a posh lady, who wouldnít dream of using such a word to describe a bodily function, exclaim: ďOh shit. Iíve trodden in some doggie poo.Ē

And Mark, Iím not holy, let alone holier than anyone else. Nor do I think I know best. Iím just an ordinary bloke who happened express an opinion. In future Iíll keep well away from the poetry corner if you are going to be so touchy about comments that donít fit in with your views.

Hugh
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: Mark H on August 25, 2009, 06:31:55 AM
Hugh

There are some very good guidelines on how to crit poetry submissions. And here's one easy rule to remember ... DO NOT tell a poet that his work is not poetry just because you don't like it.

You may not be holier than thou, but your post on this thread was a good impression of being so. How on earth you can say that V's work belongs on the lavatory wall then have the temerity to post

Quote
Iím just an ordinary bloke who happened express an opinion.

as if that's OK. Is it Hugh? If I crit a piece of your prose and say, "this is not prose it's just unsophisticated twaddle that should only be found on the kindergarten blackboard" then justify it as opinion, is that OK with you?

I confess I did enjoy the OTT toys out the pram gesture

Quote
In future Iíll keep well away from the poetry corner if you are going to be so touchy about comments that donít fit in with your views.

 :D :D

Mark, touch? ROFL.
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: Hugh on August 25, 2009, 01:28:56 PM
If I crit a piece of your prose and say, "this is not prose it's just unsophisticated twaddle that should only be found on the kindergarten blackboard" then justify it as opinion, is that OK with you?

Yes, perfectly OK. I would assume it was your honest opinion that something Iíd written was puerile, ask myself why you thought it childish and trivial, and try to re-write it into something a grown-up might enjoy reading Ė or abandon it as a futile attempt to be funny and try something else.

íAfraid I had to google what ROFL means, being an old git whoís new to computer speak.

Iím quite happy to shake hands and agree to differ on what can reasonably be called a poem, and go on my way, trying to avoid the temptation to click on Poetry Corner to see if thereís anything that appeals.

Pax
Hugh
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: Akeith (Gray) on August 25, 2009, 01:56:32 PM
What does "ROFL" mean, by the way. My git is old, too.  :D
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: eric on August 25, 2009, 01:59:58 PM
No it's not, you're still young enough to be Hugh's bastard child.  "Rolling on (the) floor laughing"
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: Akeith (Gray) on August 25, 2009, 02:19:55 PM
Oh...ok...kool that.
So, now what's this thread about and who's it?
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: almostabled1983 on August 25, 2009, 03:14:46 PM
This is amusing.
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: mlambere on August 25, 2009, 03:41:22 PM
pmsl
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: Victor on August 26, 2009, 10:40:17 AM
damn
     
       damn

               damn

hell.


Title: Re: frustration
Post by: almostabled1983 on August 26, 2009, 10:49:59 AM
damn
     
       damn

               damn

hell.



The point of this is?
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: Victor on August 26, 2009, 11:06:07 AM
Quote
The point of this is?

nothing ;D
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: almostabled1983 on August 26, 2009, 11:13:39 AM
nothing ;D
You are weird!
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: Victor on August 26, 2009, 11:22:55 AM
Quote
You are weird!

yes, among other things.
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: JoD on August 26, 2009, 11:57:56 AM
hugh, come back!!!!!

i think what a poem is or is not is a VERY valid discussion to have. what might be valid topics for poetry is another and timely on these boards, i'd say. mark was reacting to how you articulated your opinion, not the opinion itself (sez i).

victor lied (bad victor) when he said the point of what he wrote  was 'nothing.' it was exactly about the conversation it sparked...when hugh popped in.

if i ran into victor's frustration poem in an anthology i'd scratch my head and think, 'huh? what do i do with this?'

if i had been on these boards the past few months and i ran into that same poem, i'd think...touche, kid.

and if i then read eric's affirming critique of it, i'd think...go, eric!

so. yah.
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: eric on August 26, 2009, 12:38:49 PM
jo, heh, wait a second.  you're all over the place, and you don't need to be.  

first of all, leave hugh alone.  he made his point, he likes to spark a little debate, and he went.  this is not his taste in poetry, never was and never will be.  he knows i'll just beat him senseless if he wants to fight anyway, we already had a duel and he lost.  but give the man his shred of dignity, he has his opinions and he's entitled to them.  and I personally think he's a hell of a gentleman too.  

a debate about what is a poem is basically boring and repetitive.  we have had this debate many times and there is only one good answer, mine.  heh.   just kidding.  read amie for more details ...
yamrus has more or less demonstrated that reading out of the  phonebook could result in a good poem, but the key is the guts, bone and blood.  this is not different from my opinion, and yes, it's been said too.

this poem is clearly a poem, and a good one.

victor did not lie, and he was not talking about his main poem.  he was chatting up AA (you go, girl) about his previous post, which was in fun.  I love to see young love in action.  Smooch.

Title: Re: frustration
Post by: JoD on August 26, 2009, 01:01:28 PM
jo, heh, wait a second.  you're all over the place, and you don't need to be.  

first of all, leave hugh alone.  he made his point, he likes to spark a little debate, and he went.  this is not his taste in poetry, never was and never will be.  he knows i'll just beat him senseless if he wants to fight anyway, we already had a duel and he lost.  but give the man his shred of dignity, he has his opinions and he's entitled to them.  and I personally think he's a hell of a gentleman too.  here's to  you, Sir Hugh.

a debate about what is a poem is basically boring and repetitive.  we have had this debate many times and there is only one good answer, mine.  heh.   just kidding.  read amie for more details ...
yamrus has more or less demonstrated that reading out of the  phonebook could result in a good poem, but the key is the guts, bone and blood.  this is not different from my opinion, and yes, it's been said too.

this poem is clearly a poem, and a good one.

victor did not lie, and he was not talking about his main poem.  he was chatting up AA (you go, girl) about his previous post, which was in fun.  I love to see young love in action.  Smooch.



mm. feel better now?  : )
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: eric on August 26, 2009, 01:16:53 PM
thank you dear, I needed that.
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: Hugh on August 26, 2009, 04:45:46 PM
Hugh, come back, you say. Sorry, Jod, even such a plea from a gorgeous lady is not going to draw me back into this, tempting thought it is.

As for
he knows i'll just beat him senseless if he wants to fight anyway, we already had a duel and he lost.

it just goes to show what a world of make-believe some of these poetry types live in. What I will say is that Ericís poems at least have substance, even if I donít understand some of them, and I respect that.

Nite nite

Hugh


Title: Re: frustration
Post by: eric on August 26, 2009, 05:07:31 PM
Again, Hugh proves that he is an exceedingly fine gentleman as well as a good swordsman.
Title: Re: frustration
Post by: Spell Chick on August 26, 2009, 05:35:23 PM
This "poem"  ....


well, let me try one.



love
   
      love

             love


    diapers

====

well, at least it doesn't strive to gain attention by uttering useless banal profanities.

the word fuck is so overused it is useless. it doesn't even mean anything anymore other than one's vocabulary is too limited to actually tell someone off or to express one's outrage adequately.

If this is a poem, I'm waiting for Shakespeare to rise from the dead and hang his head in shame.
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: Mark H on August 26, 2009, 05:38:45 PM
ah yes but ...

Good Lord Boyet, my beauty, though but mean,
Needs not the painted flourish of your praise:
Beauty is bought by judgement of the eye,
Not utter'd by base sale of chapmen's tongues.
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: twisted wheel on August 26, 2009, 05:52:53 PM
i don't know if this is poetry or not but it did evoke an emotional response. LMAO :D
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: eric on August 26, 2009, 06:35:40 PM
Patti, my dear, you don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about.  I think Mark got you there.  MC, good point.
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: Spell Chick on August 26, 2009, 06:39:22 PM
Thank you Eric. I will now go and purge the two years of college English classes in Literature - my first major. It is a good thing I didn't pursue THAT degree.

Since I seem to be dealing with children, I will quote from a fairy tale.

"The Emperor has no clothes."
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: JoD on August 26, 2009, 06:42:23 PM
hm. a point to the lady.

but spellchick, "What is poetry and if you know what poetry is what is prose?" --Gertrude Stein
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: Spell Chick on August 26, 2009, 06:47:52 PM
The original post is poetry.

Just like the added file, is art.

I know it is art because it is titled so.
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: eric on August 26, 2009, 06:53:07 PM
Patti, I got an honors degree in writing (English) at the most exclusive college in the country, won first place in a national English contest, had degrees, certificates and honors from four postgraduate institutions in three countries, studied with some of the finest writers of our generation, and wrote at a high level for forty years and more.  You have often said you know nothing about poetry.  I obviously do.  So your two years of incomplete studies entitle you to pontificate about how I know nothin'?  I think not, darlin' ... especially since Shakespeare would clearly agree with Mark and me on this one.  So go quote your nursery stories all you like, but give up on this one.  
Thank you very much.
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: Spell Chick on August 26, 2009, 06:57:30 PM
Yes, sir!

I see clearly now. this is poetry. it is meaningful.

I thought I couldn't write poetry, but I see anything written and placed here for review IS in fact a poem. I had no idea.

I thank you for showing me the errors of my ways. I am overawed by your vast and superior knowledge and can see my lack of education is clearly putting me at a disadvantage.

I will quietly go and compose some blithering idiot nonsense and post it here for all the world to see.

The

     Emperor
         

has
    no
          clothes.
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: eric on August 26, 2009, 07:05:03 PM
Yeah, well, you're a twittering airhead who spouts nonsense.  Not about the poem, you're  entitled to disagree there, but by calling me a pompous hypocrite.  If you want to do that feel free, and go to bloody hell.  Have I made myself clear?

I never said you're a blithering idiot, I quoted you that you know nothing about poetry and I compared my credentials to your lack of the same.  What about that do  you find insulting, you twittering airhead?
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: Spell Chick on August 26, 2009, 07:09:12 PM
Yeah, well, you're a twittering airhead who spouts nonsense.  Not about the poem, you're  entitled to disagree there, but by calling me a pompous hypocrite.  If you want to do that feel free, and go to bloody hell.  Have I made myself clear?

I never said you're a blithering idiot, I quoted you that you know nothing about poetry and I compared my credentials to your lack of the same.  What about that do  you find insulting, you twittering airhead?

I agreed that you were better educated than me, why does this make you angry?

But we are hijacking this thread from the meaningful discussion about the brilliance of this poem.
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: eric on August 26, 2009, 07:12:54 PM
Agreed.  I am sorry you made me angry, dear.   Forgive me?
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: Spell Chick on August 26, 2009, 07:14:06 PM
Yes

     Yes

           Yes

                  Cigarette
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: JoD on August 26, 2009, 07:18:11 PM
LMAO
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: eric on August 26, 2009, 07:30:36 PM
that is not a poem, Jo.  well, I mean LMAO.  Patti's is a poem, sort of, and it's hilarious.  There, you see Patti?  I can read.

But that is just why Victor's also very funny poem is a poem.  In fact, it's probably one of the best he's ever written.  Word for word, it's the best.
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: JoD on August 26, 2009, 11:24:01 PM
especially if the title is exactly what you see in the header:

frustration (profanity)
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: Victor on August 27, 2009, 03:29:12 AM
thanks for the helpful comments Spell Chick. :)

also to eric, Jo and Mark -  my second round of thanks. ;D

and incidentally, since people feel free to walk in and spam away in my beloved thread, I feel obliged to do this little advertising for my part-. check it out --  ;D

http://www.mywriterscircle.com/index.php?topic=22918.0

Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: Vienna on August 27, 2009, 03:41:56 AM


not a bad days work 3 fucks and a shit.

But why after 3 fucks are you still frustrated?? ;D
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: Victor on August 27, 2009, 03:46:50 AM
coz I'm multiorgasmic  ;D
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: Vienna on August 27, 2009, 03:56:10 AM


Oh come come victor   ;D
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: twisted wheel on August 27, 2009, 04:16:10 AM
Yes

     Yes

           Yes

                  Cigarette
i don't know if this is poetry or not but it did evoke an emotional response. ;D
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: Victor on August 27, 2009, 04:44:55 AM
Quote
Oh come come victor   


I can, can...but I dont wanna make this thread sticky. ;D
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: Biola on August 27, 2009, 05:04:26 AM
Hi Hugh,
Di not know you had transferred the chat room here. I could barely hear my myself breathe! All my favourite people like showing their friendlies with a punch or two. I think eric had the last round and Jo is too lovely to box your ears. All the conciliatory bits did not help
yawn
    yawn
       burp
..............ho! sleep
biola
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: eric on August 27, 2009, 10:30:58 AM
vienna, you're a funny, funny man.  funny i should say that ...

Well said, biola dear,  and I apologize to YOU (ONLY YOU, HEH) for getting a bit rasty.  But the point to my rather barbed exchanges with Hugh and Patti was not who was better educated, and thus more able to pontificate on the unworthiness of Victor's efforts at a so-called "poem."  (Patti deemed Freshman and Sophomore  English sufficient to do that.)  It was about credentials and superiority in general being foolish and ridiculous on the poetry boards.  While I have many times Patti's academic creds in English, Yamrus is a college dropout (or he never went there at all, I forget which).  He knows more about poetry than Patti will ever learn.  Victor is 19 or thereabouts and (guess what) knows less about  the old poets than Patti does.  But he knows vastly more about modern poetry and what came after it.  And (leaving his vomitous garbage aside) he is very good at what he does.  He actually has the courage to write poems.

My point was, if you don't like a poem, explain why in the context of the poem.  Don't attack the poet or other reviewers, don't use vague sarcasm that ultimately does not mean anything.  We need to  focus on the real words involved, know why we say things.  If we do that, there won't be mudslinging and name calling.  

It isn't about winning or losing.  There should be no winners or losers here.  It is about reasonably good poetry, our common cause.

What really yanks my chain is when someone with a smattering of background (or quite often, none at all), but often with academic pretensions, dismisses the work of a hand-working poet as not a poem at all, just because they don't like it.  It does not sound like what they imagined the feathery Shakespeare or Tennyson to be that they think they grew up with, therefore it must not be worthy of being a poem at all.  

That same sanctimonious, self-righteous attitude led many to denounce Whitman's 1855 Leaves of Grass as "not a poem" when it appeared.  Emerson said this was the greatest American poem to have ever appeared.  I agree, except that I would say it never has been exceeded since then.  In any case, it is a classic.  Surely, if Hugh or Patti had been around in 1855, they would have deemed it a non-poem with the  rest.

My feeling is that we should avoid such knee-jerk judgments on the boards.  At least until our studies are complete.
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: Vienna on August 27, 2009, 11:05:13 AM


eric, you are a gent.
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: JoD on August 27, 2009, 11:11:18 AM
<goes to her favorite dictionary to look up the word 'rasty'>
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: eric on August 27, 2009, 01:34:34 PM
eric's online dictionary defines it as "60's slang for 'out of hand or reckless;' derived from rasta + nasty ... common in smoke-laden environments, at night, out of sight."
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: Biola on August 28, 2009, 02:17:32 AM
Hi Eric,
You really are a gentleman, reminds me of old English, lace and lavendar! Seriously though I sincerely think you are right, I used to feel that poetry is looking for the shortest possible way to express an emotion, or view. Hugh's poem was very frustrated. which was the point really, Imagine wanting to say something and the words won't come. He controlled himself enough to write his expression down. I am reassured that we would get honest, polite review of our poems which will help us to grow. I think you did right pulling their ears. Like Jo, I would suggest you publish your own dictionary so we could learn. Rasty indeed.
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: Hugh on August 28, 2009, 08:14:14 AM
vienna, you're a funny, funny man.  funny i should say that ...

Well said, biola dear,  and I apologize to YOU (ONLY YOU, HEH) for getting a bit rasty.  But the point to my rather barbed exchanges with Hugh and Patti was not who was better educated, and thus more able to pontificate on the unworthiness of Victor's efforts at a so-called "poem."  (Patti deemed Freshman and Sophomore  English sufficient to do that.)  It was about credentials and superiority in general being foolish and ridiculous on the poetry boards.  While I have many times Patti's academic creds in English, Yamrus is a college dropout (or he never went there at all, I forget which).  He knows more about poetry than Patti will ever learn.  Victor is 19 or thereabouts and (guess what) knows less about  the old poets than Patti does.  But he knows vastly more about modern poetry and what came after it.  And (leaving his vomitous garbage aside) he is very good at what he does.  He actually has the courage to write poems.

My point was, if you don't like a poem, explain why in the context of the poem.  Don't attack the poet or other reviewers, don't use vague sarcasm that ultimately does not mean anything.  We need to  focus on the real words involved, know why we say things.  If we do that, there won't be mudslinging and name calling.  

It isn't about winning or losing.  There should be no winners or losers here.  It is about reasonably good poetry, our common cause.

What really yanks my chain is when someone with a smattering of background (or quite often, none at all), but often with academic pretensions, dismisses the work of a hand-working poet as not a poem at all, just because they don't like it.  It does not sound like what they imagined the feathery Shakespeare or Tennyson to be that they think they grew up with, therefore it must not be worthy of being a poem at all.  

That same sanctimonious, self-righteous attitude led many to denounce Whitman's 1855 Leaves of Grass as "not a poem" when it appeared.  Emerson said this was the greatest American poem to have ever appeared.  I agree, except that I would say it never has been exceeded since then.  In any case, it is a classic.  Surely, if Hugh or Patti had been around in 1855, they would have deemed it a non-poem with the  rest.

My feeling is that we should avoid such knee-jerk judgments on the boards.  At least until our studies are complete.

Eric my friend, with your superior academic qualifications you will of course be familiar with Shakespeareís warning:

ďDo not presume too much upon my love;
I may do that I shall be sorry for.Ē

Obviously I canít speak for Patti, but I have compared two pieces of writing.

Come, said my soul,
Such verses for my Body let us write, (for we are one,)
That should I after return,
Or, long, long hence, in other spheres,
There to some group of mates the chants resuming,
(Tallying Earth's soil, trees, winds, tumultuous waves,)
Ever with pleas'd smile I may keep on,
Ever and ever yet the verses owning--as, first, I here and now
Signing for Soul and Body, set to them my name,

                                                                            Walt Whitman (Leaves of Grass)

Fuck
Fuck
Fuck                                                     
Shit
       

For me, one of those is poetry, and the other profanity merely for the sake of it. No cigar for guessing which is which.

Hugh
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: Vienna on August 28, 2009, 08:25:33 AM


Hugh, is it profanity for the sake of it? hmmm perhaps, perhaps not. Also what exactly is poetry? Poetry is different things to different people.Wordsworth defined poetry as "the spontaneous overflow of powerful feelings;" Emily Dickinson said, "If I read a book and it makes my body so cold no fire ever can warm me, I know that is poetry;" and Dylan Thomas defined poetry this way: "Poetry is what makes me laugh or cry or yawn, what makes my toenails twinkle, what makes me want to do this or that or nothing."

isnt "Fuck" etc a spontaneous overflow of powerful feelings?

Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: Hugh on August 28, 2009, 09:32:18 AM
Quote from: vienna link=topic=22802.msg364486#msg364486 date=1251462333
isnt "Fuck" etc a spontaneous overflow of powerful feelings?
[/quote

Maybe, but in my opinion it has become so over-used that it's ceased to have any power other than to punctuate the speech of certain kinds of people. The High Street now sounds like an army barrack room used to, and I happen not to like it. Is that a crime?
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: Hugh on August 28, 2009, 09:38:03 AM
Something went wrong there. The quote and my bit ended up in the wrong boxes.
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: Mark H on August 28, 2009, 10:04:31 AM
Hugh

You can take the moral high ground if you wish, but eventually the fucking tide will rise and wash you away. It's as inevitable as the fact that one day Victor will become a grumpy old git and start complaining about the disgusting way that youngsters [insert own imagery here] in the street.

Mark
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: Victor on August 28, 2009, 10:11:54 AM
interesting...

BTW is lord worm a better singer than elvis ? ...off-topic maybe...just curious  ;D
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: Mark H on August 28, 2009, 10:13:42 AM
Elvis Costello?
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: Victor on August 28, 2009, 10:15:43 AM
elvis presley... ;D
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: eric on August 28, 2009, 10:50:18 AM
I believe Hugh's argument is rather powerful and far more plausible than many similar ones.  -- Even though it is at root flawed, and ultimately incorrect, as well as a tad sanctimonious.  But it is a great thing to create works of beauty from the word, something Whitman knew how to  do far better than Victor.  Victor's poetry is  raw and gutteral more than gorgeous, but Whitman in his day was definitely called obscene and so on also.

I would recommend, Hugh, that you look to the original 1855 version of Leaves, which you do not have, for what I think is far more powerful and lovely verse ... the later edition you rely on may be more to your taste but it lacks much of the amazing beauty, in my humble opinion.

Of course it's  a little unfair to expect Victor to emulate Shakespeare or Whitman, both true geniuses in my book, before we allow that he's writing poetry ... there are many thousands, maybe millions of poets out there, and all kinds of poetry, good and bad.  His ditty clearly does meet my technical requirements for a poem, though ... perhaps the more informative argument is whether it is good or bad as a poem.  As we have already seen, it obviously amuses several people ... is that enough?  Well we can argue  about that, I think.
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: emma112 on August 28, 2009, 11:37:48 AM
Well, I say it's a good poem.
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: eric on August 28, 2009, 12:23:08 PM
To review, the reason it's a poem is that it conveys an emotional response, a certain set of emotions, to the reader.  Now Hugh, with his classical education (which I seriously envy) and having grown up in a decidedly different era, might not be familiar with the factual background to what I just said.  It is just so common for modern men (or women) in moments of frustration to say "fuck-fuck-fuck-shit" as they engage in various sorts of body language.  Victor has taken that and arranged it spatially in stanzas, giving a humorous formalistic twist to it that tickles my funny bone endlessly and comments on modern society at the same time.  That, to my mind, is a poem, and a good one.

If we take Hugh's word for it that fuck has been part of the formal language since 1965 (that's nearly half a century, and actually the date would be much earlier in a more reasoned view), and if we accept that the word is no longer even obscene by formal standards in this context, then the bathroom wall argument tends to lose force.   But this is even more true when we consider the precedents to Victor's poem in modern and post-modern poetry, and their successors.  For just one example, Amin Baraka (LeRoy Jones) did a great deal to experiment with the music of the spoken word and the relationship between poetry and music as a way to  break out of barriers that had grown up over the years.  His use of fuck and similar words was groundbreaking and often beautiful.

Probably since Ginsburg, the idea of writing epic all-encompassing poems to describe everything about your life, down to your fingernails, is not in vogue any more.  Ginsburg did it so well he more or less shut the door on that.  Ferlinghetti still does it, we see that in Charles Olsen's outlaw poems a bit, but otherwise it is not the done thing.  Today the overriding goal is to express the blood and bones of a discrete thing in the here and now.  And that's what Victor has done here, with playful and interesting effect.

So yes, I agree with Emma that this is a good poem, though it does not look like Shakespeare or like Walt. 
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: emma112 on August 28, 2009, 12:26:32 PM
Very well said, Eric.  :)
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: Hugh on August 28, 2009, 12:56:00 PM
fuck it
iím out of here
before the young ones
find more colourful ways
to call me
a grumpy old git

and more ladies swoon
from ericís
erudition

Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: emma112 on August 28, 2009, 01:16:43 PM
Oh Hugh, I don't think you're a grumpy old git! You're perfectly entitled to your opinion.

A few months ago, I wouldn't have said that this was a poem. That's because I had absolutely no poetic experience whatsoever. But I have learnt a lot of things about poetry recently, which has me thinking that this is definitely a poem and a good one at that. It's good because, as Eric and other members have said, it brings out a reaction in me. It made me laugh and smile. Which is a good thing. Yes, it may be an unusual poem, seeing as it only consists of four words that are four letters long. But it's still a poem.

However, if some people like yourself, Hugh, think it isn't a poem, then that's fine. It's your opinion. So, we don't think you're grumpy because of that. And we're not against you because of that. We are all just expressing our opinions.
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: eric on August 28, 2009, 01:29:30 PM
fuck it
iím out of here
before the young ones
find more colourful ways
to call me
a grumpy old git


you're a funny man, sir.  Godspeed.

oh, i ought to say, you know you are better read than me in several respects.  i just have a bigger mouth.

Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: gibberatu on August 28, 2009, 08:54:24 PM
I saw the poem when there were only two posts about it. I thought 'crap' then 'is it?' a couple of seconds later, and decided I'd better let it stew in the back of my brain for a few days. Now I think it's really good, even though I'm a bit old and like 'The Charge of the Light Brigade' and John Betjeman.

I've just reviewed a long poem which alludes to Winston Churchill, and I can't help saying that never blah blah has so much been said blah blah on so little. 'So little' only because it's short. The poem doesn't say essayloads but says plenty for it's length.

I haven't read the whole thread, I hope that's not a hang, draw & quarter offence (probably what I'll get for mentioning old style poets).
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: JoD on August 31, 2009, 09:18:57 AM
eric wrote...
Quote
a debate about what is a poem is basically boring and repetitive.

and then we proceeded to have exactly that debate, and it went on for days.

vienna wrote...
Quote
Also what exactly is poetry? Poetry is different things to different people.Wordsworth defined poetry as "the spontaneous overflow of powerful feelings;" Emily Dickinson said, "If I read a book and it makes my body so cold no fire ever can warm me, I know that is poetry;" and Dylan Thomas defined poetry this way: "Poetry is what makes me laugh or cry or yawn, what makes my toenails twinkle, what makes me want to do this or that or nothing."

and me, i'm now on a mission to find more such quotes, including one that would ring true for me, as those above don't.

so if one of the things a poem should do is leave us something other than indifferent...which i'm POSITIVE would be part of his definition of poetry, victor did good, and thanks for it!


Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: twisted wheel on August 31, 2009, 09:43:56 AM
this poem has stuck with me ever since i read it. i thought it was shit to be honest but it's grown on me a lot. dammit - i love it. very powerful.
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: Victor on August 31, 2009, 10:47:38 AM
thanks for the comments emma, Gib,Jo and MC

and ...Hugh. ;D
Title: Re: frustration (profanity)
Post by: Victor on August 31, 2009, 10:54:58 AM
oops...saw i missed eric...

thanks dude. ;D