My Writers Circle

Writing => Writers Wanted! => Topic started by: X2 MANIFESTO on May 24, 2008, 08:56:21 AM

Title: X2 Manifesto
Post by: X2 MANIFESTO on May 24, 2008, 08:56:21 AM
New writers. New media. New thinking.
X2 MANIFESTO (http://www.x2manifesto.com)

X2 MANIFESTO (http://www.x2manifesto.com) is currently open to submissions and is seeking innovative, bold and creative writers for this audacious new venture. We are currently in the process of negotiating corporate sponsorship, and are going to deliver the pinnacle of 21st century literature to our readers.  

X2 MANIFESTO (http://www.x2manifesto.com) will be available quarterly in a wide range of formats, with free print copies to be delivered to publishing houses, agents, and others in the publishing sector. Initial print release will be available in the UK, USA, and Canada. It is intended that X2 MANIFESTO (http://www.x2manifesto.com) will be a paying venture, but rates will be set when discussions with our sponsor are finalised.

We are seeking submissions of prose (including novel excerpts as well as short stories), poetry, photography and artwork.

http://www.x2manifesto.com
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: SteveJ on May 24, 2008, 09:01:11 AM
Sounds very interesting. :)
I'll definitely be submitting to X2 MANIFESTO. :)
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: ChipTee on May 25, 2008, 03:05:44 PM
Probably obvious, but I'll ask anyway.
In the submission info X2MANIFESTO states;

'All work must be previously unpublished [...] and all writers must not currently have, or be about to sign, a contract with a publishing house.'

I take it that this qualification is specific to the submitted piece, not to any other work the author might be progressing.

... that I should be so lucky.

Chip
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: X2 MANIFESTO on May 25, 2008, 08:09:13 PM
Hello, Chip,

The first qualification (of work being previously unpublished) is specific to the submitted piece. Any work you submit to us must not be published elsewhere. The second qualification, however, does relate to other work of the author. If you are undertaking contract negotiations with a publishing house, or currently have a contract, you are unfortunately not eligible to submit to X2 MANIFESTO.

I hope this clears up any confusion.

X2 MANIFESTO.
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: eric on May 25, 2008, 11:05:37 PM
I'd just like to advise you that you, X2, are not eligible to accept any of my work, because you breathe.

Sorry.
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: Conanthedoylarian on May 27, 2008, 07:33:19 AM
Here I am guys with my usual question:

I could not find your payment rates on the website linked to above.  What are they please?
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: eric on May 27, 2008, 11:53:26 PM
They don't pay, Conan.  Duh.  Read what they say.
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: Conanthedoylarian on May 28, 2008, 03:22:37 AM
It would still be useful to know what they had in mind wouldn't it Eric (sorry eric)? Then those of us who don't want to waste our time helping out publications who don't pay have some idea what we are getting into, and what to budget for the work they want.

So worth asking the question I would have thought.
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: PaulW on May 28, 2008, 04:37:26 AM
They say the following in their initial post here guys.


Quote
It is intended that X2 MANIFESTO will be a paying venture, but rates will be set when discussions with our sponsor are finalised.

It just needs a little patience. They can't give numbers till they know how much they've got to play with.
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: eric on May 28, 2008, 06:14:13 AM
Yes.  Exactly.  What they say sounds to me like "We may pay in the sweet bye and bye, but we're not paying now."  To my ear that means, "we're not paying."  The rest is just to rope in writers. 

It could be I just don't have enough experience with such things to catch the right intonation, Paul, in which case I appreciate correction.  And of course Conan, if you want to go forward with your inquiry that is certainly up to you.
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: SteveJ on May 28, 2008, 06:54:27 AM
Exposure is every bit as important as payment, to new writers, so I've given it a go. :)
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: Conanthedoylarian on May 28, 2008, 01:23:21 PM
They say the following in their initial post here guys.


It just needs a little patience. They can't give numbers till they know how much they've got to play with.

Yes Paul, thanks.  If I'd missed it first time round, eric certainly brought it to my attention.

It sounds like an exciting project and I wouldn't want to discourage anyone (who doesn't mind perhaps not getting paid) from contributing.

Some years ago, when I was helping to launch a small publishing company, we worked out very carefully how everyone who we needed to pay would get paid.  In setting our pricing policy, we budgeted a percentage for writers and told them what that would be and that it would be based on actual sales.  They knew where they were with us before they committed their work to us.

To have done otherwise would have been unfair to the writers, printers, etc., as well as being a very bad business plan.  In order to get things started, we had to invest capital (otherwise the printers, who HAD to be paid before sales could be made, wouldn't have wanted to know etc.).

I would encourage anyone contributing to this project to search for the publishers, Core 6, and see what they can find, remembering that they say they are "..... experts in print, on-line content delivery and emerging formats for the delivery  of the written word." See http://www.x2manifesto.com/about.html (http://www.x2manifesto.com/about.html)

I'm sure they can draw their own conclusions.




Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: X2 MANIFESTO on May 28, 2008, 05:42:26 PM
As already stated, X2 MANIFESTO is currently in negotiation with a major business regarding sponsorship, as well as several other companies considering making an investment. Until those negotiations are complete, we will not discuss ANY aspect of funding, whether that be promotional costs, production costs, cover price, advertising rates or payment to writers and artists. This is predominantly out of courtesy to potential sponsors. It might be an old fashioned attitude, but it is one we adhere to.

Any writers or artists who have work accepted will, as is the case in contract law, have the right to withdraw their submissions prior to signing a contract, at which time they will be fully aware of what payments are offered. Naturally, if they do not wish to wait until the negotiations are complete, they should simply not submit any material for consideration. It's a free world, and no one will force you to come over to our little bit of it.

It should also be noted what the aim of X2 MANIFESTO is. The project's goal is not to keep average writers afloat with the odd paying insertion. The goal, which we have refined with the help of several leading publishers and agents, is to present new and innovative writers seeking publishing contracts and/or representation by literary agents. We are seeking creative talent looking beyond what our project offers. We are not the destination, merely a short-cut to where such writers want to go. The reason X2 MANIFESTO is attracting funding is because of this; it's about nurturing the best, not keeping the mediocre in cigarettes and beer!

Finally, the aim of X2 MANIFESTO is to offer a stage for the best new writing talent to deliver their work to the publishing sector. In all honesty, if writers prefer to scratch around getting sporadic payments for occasional insertions, then they might find the ambition and drive demanded from contributors a little too rich for their blood.
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: eric on May 28, 2008, 11:01:06 PM
Pass a Camel, will you?
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: SuzieHarris on May 29, 2008, 04:21:36 AM
Quote
In all honesty, if writers prefer to scratch around getting sporadic payments for occasional insertions, then they might find the ambition and drive demanded from contributors a little too rich for their blood.

This is an offensive comment to ALL aspiring writers. The only people, it seems, who will get their pockets lined from this venture is YOU.

Quote
Until those negotiations are complete, we will not discuss ANY aspect of funding, whether that be promotional costs, production costs, cover price, advertising rates or payment to writers and artists. This is predominantly out of courtesy to potential sponsors. It might be an old fashioned attitude, but it is one we adhere to.

It's not old fashioned, it's prehistoric. Writers have the right to know at least some information of future payments. Even if it is, as Conanthedoylarian states, an insight into the percentage they may expect to receive in the future. My publishing contract doesn't mention figures, it gives me a percentage, the actual money I get depends on sales. If they hadn't given me a clue of how much I could POTENTIALLY earn they could have shoved their contract up their asses.

Quote
Finally, the aim of X2 MANIFESTO is to offer a stage for the best new writing talent to deliver their work to the publishing sector.

You won't get the 'best new writing' by not being up front about your intentions with regards to payment. The best writers expect to be well paid, or at the very least given an idea of what they could expect to earn if they submit.

Before you go off on one saying I'm a 'bitter wannabe' I will tell you that I'm a successful freelance writer, author and writing tutor. I've been in this game a while now and I tell my students to be wary of non-paying markets. You work hard on a piece and to not be paid for it is ridiculous. Why should they line other people's pockets? With hardwork you can get PAYING gigs, and good ones at that.

Quote
it's about nurturing the best, not keeping the mediocre in cigarettes and beer!

I don't know you, or your company, but from what I have read  (not only on your site but in your replies here) I wouldn't come near you. But hey, that's my choice as a WELL PAID writer, right? Oh, and I'm NOT mediocre and I don't smoke or drink!

I say 'NO to MANIFESTO!'

Suzie

Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: midnightcandle on May 29, 2008, 05:14:59 AM
I like a ballsy lady ;D
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: Conanthedoylarian on May 29, 2008, 07:15:30 AM
The reason X2 MANIFESTO is attracting funding is because of this; it's about nurturing the best, not keeping the mediocre in cigarettes and beer!

Finally, the aim of X2 MANIFESTO is to offer a stage for the best new writing talent to deliver their work to the publishing sector. In all honesty, if writers prefer to scratch around getting sporadic payments for occasional insertions, then they might find the ambition and drive demanded from contributors a little too rich for their blood.

As I've said before, this sounds like an exciting project and I hope it succeeds in its goals.

It's of little relevance to me as I'm

Seriously though, I just thought that pressing the point about payment would give potential contributors more information about what they were investing their time and effort in, and would help them to make up their minds.

Suzie's thoughts, as someone with a lot of experience in the business, bear a lot of weight.

Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: Gyppo on May 29, 2008, 08:04:13 AM
I tend to treat all such offers as I would beta software.  That is, I let others take the risks and iron out the inevitable 'teething problems'.  Selfish?  Maybe.  Pragmatic?  Definitely.

If a scheme, product, magazine, etc, is any good then it can survive without me.  If it survives then I may come and have another look.

I have no doubt there are some wonderfully innovative schemes out there, started by starry-eyed idealists who have no intention of ripping off or misleading would be contributors.  Just as there are hundreds of 'small presses' which limp along from issue to issue, barely breaking even, funded by subscriptions.  I'm rather fond of these little 'against the odds' magazines.

But overall I'm inclined to 'wait and see' when it comes to 'new and innovative'.  Because of this I've probably missed a few 'golden opportunities', but I'm sure I've missed many more severe duckings in the sea of chance.

Gyppo
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: X2 MANIFESTO on May 29, 2008, 08:52:34 AM
Suzie, I understand your concern and wouldn’t dream of labelling you a bitter wannabe. I would like to address this point, however:

Quote
The best writers expect to be well paid, or at the very least given an idea of what they could expect to earn if they submit.

Those who submit to us can expect to earn exposure in the publishing industry. We feel that this is by far the most important aspect of X2 MANIFESTO, but that is not to say we will not be a paying market. We simply do not want to release any details that are not finalised, for reasons stated earlier. ‘Prehistoric’ or not, this is how we will be conducting ourselves. And, as I mentioned in my previous post, if any writer dislikes our terms, they are perfectly within their rights to withdraw their submission. We are not out to deceive.

Conan, thank you. I appreciate your intentions. Gyppo, here’s hoping you come back to take a look soon enough.

I believe that all that needs to be said about X2 MANIFESTO has already been said, but I would also like to add the final point that many amazing writers have spent their days in great supply of cigarettes and beer.
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: SuzieHarris on May 29, 2008, 08:56:07 AM
MANIFESTO

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and this is an open forum for writers to discuss, chat, throw things at and generally disagree with each other.

I wish you luck with your venture and hope that we have many more battles in the future, after all you don't get to be a 'ballsy lady' by keeping silent! Besides, I'm NO lady, I prefer to make myself heard - loudly lol

Suzie
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: eric on May 29, 2008, 01:14:05 PM
Here's to you, Suzie.  Good to see you again.  Thanks for a couple of fine and insightful replies.  The X2 diatribe you responded to was churlish, abusive, and dissembling.  By the time the writer gets the take-it-or-leave it terms, the work has already been done and he or she is up against a hard place.  No one's "free" in those circumstances.  I hope new writers take the time to read your words before being drawn in to that house of cards. 

By the way, can I bum a smoke?  I need something to go with this case of cheap and lousy beer.  Hell, I may even need to sell another mediocre poem half price to support my habits.
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: rewh2oman on May 29, 2008, 01:55:43 PM
Here's to you, Suzie.  Good to see you again. 

Ditto
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: Caffers on May 29, 2008, 02:09:19 PM
The X2 diatribe you responded to was churlish, abusive, and dissembling.

I thought is was funny. Am I alone it that? After all, you didn't give the guy the best of welcomes, but he certainly knows how to flick your switches. Good luck to him!

It actually looks like an interesting idea. I've emailed them for more info (although as someone published and not at the "cutting edge" I'm probably ruled out). I'll be interested what sort of a response I get.
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: eric on May 29, 2008, 03:37:24 PM
Well, Caffers, I think that language was not in the least funny--it was abusive, and I've seen other publishers bash writers that way in my 35 years in the field.  Go ahead and do whatever you want with them, be my guest, but beware.
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: eric on May 31, 2008, 12:43:04 AM
dom

Thanks for talking your usual sense.  This is worse than I thought.

As far as I can tell, the whole secret of this X2 is that he or they attract(s) cutting edge writers with new thinking exclusively. High-toned stuff.  Is it true that the way you get to be  cutting edge and high toned is to sign up with X2?  As far as I can tell.  Average types like you and me, who insist on questioning the idea because we're so mediocre, can go stuff it.  How X2 will bundle up these new thoughts by new writers in typescript, glossy, dank, or who knows what formats paid for by unnamed corporate sponsors who do not  yet exist and may never, I don't know.  But I assume he or they will slop these things on publishers' floors with burning bushes, like the one which talked to Moses. 

As everyone knows, a well-kept secret it is not that new writers with cutting-edge thoughts are way more successful than established writers and ones with agents.  Presumably, that is what the bushes will say.  The publishers will listen to the bushes so that the bushes do not burn holes in their floors.  This is something like date rape.

I really have no clue as to why the big corporate sponsors have not come forward yet.  Maybe it has something to do with the odds.  If there is about a 1% chance (or less) for new writers to be published, there is a 99% chance (or more) that money spent promoting the cutting edge works of new authors with new ideas won't pay off.  And won't wasting their time with the 99% that will end up in the slush pile anyway keep those publishers from finding the few good manuscripts that actually might turn a thousand dollar profit?  Without an agent to run the X2 process, and with the harm that rebundling the manuscripts will do, those percentages will not improve. Last I knew, corporations are in business to make money.  Waiting for another JK Rowling is a pipe dream, and businessmen deal in reality.  So where will the money come from?  Remember the basic rule, all you cutting-edge types with new ideas that think this system makes sense--never pay to have your piece published.   

There are exceptions.  I wrote a piece about my old neighborhood back in the day that was published in a vanity press and then picked up by a Hollywood studio which turned it into Gone With the Wind.  But of course I'm lying.

All this confuses me, because I'm just as stupider than you is.  I give up.  Can I bum a smoke, stale beer, and some of them used condoms?  Plus a file to file down my pointy head and achy, breaky heart?
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: Scope on June 01, 2008, 09:27:10 PM
I've submitted.

The reasoning was, as long as I'm unpublished, and still somehow managing to not care about money in the least, this can't be a bad thing. A story is only worth something in a tangible sense when someone else thinks it is, and in any other case it just might be important to the writer alone. Since dispatching a simple e-mail does not detatch me from that warm fuzzy feeling, since my appriciation of my work is internal and in no significant way affected by The Outer World, I incurr no loss whatsoever by doing so.

Since most of you aged and experienced writers in this thread seem to feel so immensely trod-upon and provoked by this endeavour, a project that quite blatantly (for anyone with half a brain) offers NO MONEY to submitters, I would conclude that you have set your standards pretty high.

I mean, they are offering, for FREE, to READ the stuff you send them. That is more than any publisher does, and more than I ever get offered.

I imagine you guys, screaming, taking it personally when a shampoo commercial promises you more "personality", or when George Bush up on the TV screen adresses you as if you were the moron.
This injustice, so to speak, is not supposed to fuel forum rants, people. It's supposed to inspire actual writing.
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: SuzieHarris on June 02, 2008, 02:30:28 AM
Scope,

I wish you well with your submission. I really do. Now let me answer some of your digs at us aged and experienced writers.

Quote
Since most of you aged and experienced writers in this thread seem to feel so immensely trod-upon and provoked by this endeavour, a project that quite blatantly (for anyone with half a brain) offers NO MONEY to submitters, I would conclude that you have set your standards pretty high.

Well, that comment could only have come from a young person with no 'published work' portfolio. I am neither aging or provoked by X2, what I am is EXPERIENCED (so you got that bit right at least). As for my standards, yes, they are high. If I didn't set them high they would always have just been mediocre, I'm better than that and my publishing history speaks for itself. You won't ever reach the stars unless you reach for them.

Quote
I mean, they are offering, for FREE, to READ the stuff you send them. That is more than any publisher does, and more than I ever get offered.

Then I conclude that you are submitting to the wrong places. Most traditional publisher DO NOT charge a reading fee. It's the ones that charge that you avoid.

Quote
I imagine you guys, screaming, taking it personally when a shampoo commercial promises you more "personality", or when George Bush up on the TV screen adresses you as if you were the moron.

Now that is just plain stupid. You have now gone to the extreme. I salute you, most would not make such an idiotic comment. You do indeed have talent - for the ridiculous. I for one don't need any more personality, I have enough, thank you.

Quote
This injustice, so to speak, is not supposed to fuel forum rants, people. It's supposed to inspire actual writing.

The only injustice here is the one you have done to yourself by submitting. Like all writers, you deserve to be paid for your work, not sit back while someone else is paid for YOUR work. Well done.

As for inspiring actual writing, I support that wholeheartedly. We are all members here for just that, to inspire each other. However, when the aged and experienced writers here smell a rat we try to warn the inexperienced to beware. You are the one that shouted at the screen like a moron and decided to attack us for sharing our thoughts.

And we shall say NOTHING about your inability to spell correctly.


Suzie

Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: Caffers on June 02, 2008, 04:45:06 AM
Well, rather than join in with negative and pessimistic rants that were generated here once the OP stood up to the initial barbs, I did something fairly revolutionary for someone working in writing; I did some basic research. I also contacted the people behind it, and guess what? They happily talked to me. In fact, it turns out we have a mutual friend in publishing, which allowed me to find out a little bit about their background On the UK side only).

If I was more interested in creative/contemporary fiction writing than the jobbing side of journalism, I'd be with them in a flash. That's what they're targeting. They're not interested in anything else for this project. In fact, they don't want interest from the freelance/non-fiction sector, a point made very clear on the web site. I don't understand why everyone here's so negative. It doesn't really affect those complaining. Maybe you are just bitter? I can't see any other explanation. I don't whinge because I can't join the ladies football team.

Anyhow, for those that this is right for, it is well researched and should definitely do a large percentage of what it sets out to do. There is another level as yet undisclosed that is going to push this into the media limelight. I said I'd not reveal it, so I won't, because I actually like what they're doing and the fellow I spoke to (Pete) seemed genuinely friendly. He wouldn't discuss money, and wouldn't discuss sponsorship, and said any general information out there was to whet writer's appetites.

He seemed genuinely willing to accept that some wanted more information up front, and his response was along the lines of, "If people want to get involved early, they can do. If they would rather wait to see the terms and conditions written in stone, they can do that too. No one should submit unless they're happy. They can wait; I'd rather they did than be worried about it. However, some people want to get involved now, and again that's their choice." Please note: That isn't a quote, more a paraphrased comment!

Interestingly, he insisted that there would be payment, but said that the typical contributor would be more interested in the final goal than payment; I have to agree. It's almost a filter. He explained the structure of payments, and it is one of the USPs, so again if you want to know more, do what I did and ask!

A major media release is scheduled in a short time, and I for one will be interested in seeing how the negative comments of the few who have so far piped up develop from there. I am slightly shocked – as a newcomer here, I only joined to run a few poems past people for criticism – to see a few people simply attack an idea that's different because they didn't understand it. Let the X2 people have their head; if they fail, then debate it. It's better than coming across as luddites!

As for Eric's comments about "abusive language"; as I said when I first posted about this, I respect the OP for standing up to the barbs. If you found it abusive, you must have applied it to yourself, because the OP didn't. If anything, you've made defamatory remarks about something you haven't even researched. That's not the sign of a good writer, is it?


Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: Scope on June 02, 2008, 06:06:43 PM
Scope,

I wish you well with your submission. I really do. Now let me answer some of your digs at us aged and experienced writers.

Well, that comment could only have come from a young person with no 'published work' portfolio. I am neither aging or provoked by X2, what I am is EXPERIENCED (so you got that bit right at least). As for my standards, yes, they are high. If I didn't set them high they would always have just been mediocre, I'm better than that and my publishing history speaks for itself. You won't ever reach the stars unless you reach for them.

Then I conclude that you are submitting to the wrong places. Most traditional publisher DO NOT charge a reading fee. It's the ones that charge that you avoid.

Now that is just plain stupid. You have now gone to the extreme. I salute you, most would not make such an idiotic comment. You do indeed have talent - for the ridiculous. I for one don't need any more personality, I have enough, thank you.

The only injustice here is the one you have done to yourself by submitting. Like all writers, you deserve to be paid for your work, not sit back while someone else is paid for YOUR work. Well done.

As for inspiring actual writing, I support that wholeheartedly. We are all members here for just that, to inspire each other. However, when the aged and experienced writers here smell a rat we try to warn the inexperienced to beware. You are the one that shouted at the screen like a moron and decided to attack us for sharing our thoughts.

And we shall say NOTHING about your inability to spell correctly.


Suzie




Ah, it would seem that I did not make myself entirely clear. My post was not meant to be nearly as mean-spirited as you would make it out to be. I merely wished to comment upon, after reading several rants in several threads regarding similar topics, that most of the "hero members" on this forum seem a little too wrapped up in the business side of writing. I can understand this, you all have to pay the bills and so forth, but it is not, in my opinion, what writing is really about. In fact, I would from my uninitiated perspective, go so far as saying that it probably hurts it. But that's me, and maybe you're fine with it. Maybe one should be. 

What I meant with the bit about the Bush, I will try to clarify. I saw a shampoo commercial the other day, saying something ridiculous along the lines of, "less dandruff, more personality". As far as I could tell, this claim had no basis in reality, only some very forced and vague connection to the fact that there were several different "flavours" of the product. The thing that made me react at all was that this was, in fact, an ad for my shampoo. The one I use. Of course this shampoo has never given me any extra personality, and while I wasn't insulted by the marketing campaign's claim to be able to provide this, it left me feeling somewhat depressed.

The admittedly ridiculous (it was meant to be humorous, you know) comparison was that the apparent indignation some of you seemed to be feeling, and perhaps you Suzie in particular, was like actually being insulted by this stupid ad. I never said you lacked personality, and I can't quite figure out how you managed to get that idea. My point was merely this; X2 are not blowing stuff up and stealing babies.
 
Now I am however somewhat put off by you saying that I need to want to get paid for writing. Trying to squeeze money out of something, anything, always requires magnificent ammounts of time and effort, in addition to performing that thing itself. That is time and effort best spent on more writing, while I can still live off on student loans. The whole topic of submission comes as an afterthought to me and that, I feel, is as it should be. I even dislike the word, submission. But in this case, it was very easily managed, I just had to read half a page, copy+paste an email adress and click send. The discussion about why I shouldn't do this, however, stretched for miles and utterly failed to convince me. I have not, as you say, done myself an injustice.

I have never paid a reading fee and nor would I.

As for my two spelling/grammatical errors, I think I'm in the clear. I am twenty years old, english is my second language, and I wrote it at four in the morning. But I guess that's not saying NOTHING.

I'd like to repeat that this was not meant as an attack, as such. And you are all very knowledgable, as far as I can tell. Nothing you said appeared to be wrong in any way, I just thought there to be an excessive ammount of fuss, really. But perhaps I overinterpreted your posts, maybe you weren't going ape shit over this.
 
In any case: peace pipe extended.
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: Donnettetxgirl on June 02, 2008, 06:33:56 PM
Suzie, you go girl!

Eric, I don't know who you are, but I like you. And I'll gladly pass you a smoke. Marlboro okay? You pretty much laid out in your responses everything that was going through my head reading this post.

Writers can't be too careful. This post is a perfect example. WE ARE A NEW PUBLISHING COMPANY Y'ALL. C'MON OVER & SUBMIT. IF WE LIKE YOUR STUFF WE'LL TAKE IT (emphasis on the word TAKE).

Excuse me for saying, but this here is a usual song & dance. Seen it too many times. Publishing companies like this visiting writers forums, hoping to see how many fresh victims they can round up. Sorry if I just came right out & said it. But, if the train is black, I call it black, and I can see this train coming a mile away.

Anyone thinking of submitting to these guys, please do yourself a favor & don't. You don't need the kind of disappointment & heartache that will most likely be attached.

Donnette Smith
Author of Lady Gabriella
www.myspace.com/storycreater
www.freewebs.com/romanceauthor

 

Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: eric on June 02, 2008, 09:53:16 PM
Donette

I don't really know who you are either, but I can tell I like you too.  As they say on this side of the pond, you go too, girl.  That Marlboro will be fine, thanks!

Dom

I'm curious as to why your posts were removed.  Did something happen?

Cathers

None of my remarks were defamatory and none of them lacked sufficient research.  They were expressing my honest view of a facially flawed offer, as the others also did.  Your view that we were attacking the company as such just to attack it is groundless and silly.  Nothing in your remarks undermines my point of view, it just presents another opinion, which in my humble ken is mistaken.  As to the abusive language, apparently you don't have much experience with language like that directed at writers, because that's what it was.  I was opposing that on pinciple, because obviously they couldn't know to apply it to me and I could have cared less if they did.  That was the meaning of my (and everyone else's) cigarette jokes.  And your slam at my writing ability, as if there were some, is just plain stupid.  Oh, is stupid too harsh a word?  I meant gratuitous, pointless, and dumb.
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: pri2des on June 03, 2008, 07:39:17 AM
as someone said pay is jus as important as exposure - i will give it a try.
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: Donnettetxgirl on June 03, 2008, 09:31:22 AM
Think of it this way: if they're not successful & professional enough to assure you a royalty, how successful & proffesional are they going to be at getting you exposure?

I once volunteered a short story to a cause that had given me much more than I could ever give them in return. I did it because I knew it was a worthy cause. But, beyond that I would never give away my hard-earned work. A writer puts too much blood & sweat into a novel to give it away to a publisher who doesn't even have a set royalty they can offer.

I would never recommend settling for something like this. It sounds more to me like this publishing company is going on a trial-run at the expense of the author. You really have no assurances. If it doesn't pan out (which seems very likely a senario), the author's book will probably be held up in this nightmare for God knows how long.

Donnette Smith
Author of Lady Gabriella
www.freewebs.com/romanceauthor
www.myspace.com/storycreater 
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: Caffers on June 04, 2008, 05:31:16 AM
Cathers

Nearly right; attention to detail isn't your strong point.

None of my remarks were defamatory and none of them lacked sufficient research.

They were defamtory in that they were negative without representing ther truth. You didn't do any research, because if you did you would have discovered the answer you seek. I simply asked and got the answer. You didn't. 

And your slam at my writing ability
Are you paranoid? You seem to think the whole world is criticising you, whilst nothing has actually been said about you, apart from your eagerness to attack something WITHOUT doing any research.
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: Caffers on June 04, 2008, 05:33:17 AM
Excuse me for saying, but this here is a usual song & dance. Seen it too many times. Publishing companies like this visiting writers forums, hoping to see how many fresh victims they can round up.

Interesting and bold. I like that. Doubtless you have done some research and asked the right questions of them, have you? Otherwise, of course, your statement is nothing but bitterness and libel.

What is it with the "writers" on here?
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: Donnettetxgirl on June 04, 2008, 08:18:28 AM
Actually it's called common sense. It would make sense that most publishing company that are doing well for themselves & their authors would not have to visit writers forums to advertise themselves. I'm not saying that it has never happened in all of history, but the chances are very unlikely. You see, most legit publishing companies are far too busy reading the hundreds of submissions that come in weekly from perspective authors. They are busy putting out books & promoting their authors. In fact, they usually get so many submissions that they don't have time, nor would they want to go looking for more.

And as a second note, I have done my research on what publishing companies do & do not do. That is why I would never trust this particular publishing company (personally).

As far as me being bitter. Far from it. Cautious, absolutely. Every writer should be when submitting to perspective agents & publishing companies. There are far too many sharks in the water, my friend. 

Bold, no. Like I said earlier: I tell it like I see it.

But, hey, it's your work. Do whatever you feel you have to do.

Donnette Smith
Author of Lady Gabriella
www.freewebs.com/romanceauthor
www.myspace.com/storycreater
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: Caffers on June 04, 2008, 09:01:43 AM
Actually it's called common sense. It would make sense that most publishing company that are doing well for themselves & their authors would not have to visit writers forums to advertise themselves. I'm not saying that it has never happened in all of history, but the chances are very unlikely. You see, most legit publishing companies are far too busy reading the hundreds of submissions that come in weekly from perspective authors. They are busy putting out books & promoting their authors. In fact, they usually get so many submissions that they don't have time, nor would they want to go looking for more.

And as a second note, I have done my research on what publishing companies do & do not do. That is why I would never trust this particular publishing company (personally).

As far as me being bitter. Far from it. Cautious, absolutely. Every writer should be when submitting to perspective agents & publishing companies. There are far too many sharks in the water, my friend. 

Bold, no. Like I said earlier: I tell it like I see it.

But, hey, it's your work. Do whatever you feel you have to do.

It's not "my work". When the hoo-haa started on here, I found the reactions of many quite funny. I contacted the people behind it and got a rather interesting insight into what they're doing. All I did was ask. Instead of asking, you and others just go with a gut reaction based on nothing other than your own uninformed opinion. As someone who gets paid to write, I find that laughable. That's all.

Everyone on here has an opinion, but to make statements of dubious legality rather than ask questions is blinkered. Funnily enough, this one thread has made me wonder if MWC is a worthwhile place to post, because so fart the views expressed seem rooted in nothing more than a desire to do down anyone and anything else.
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: SuzieHarris on June 04, 2008, 09:15:41 AM
Caffers,

Quote
I contacted the people behind it and got a rather interesting insight into what they're doing. All I did was ask. Instead of asking, you and others just go with a gut reaction based on nothing other than your own uninformed opinion. As someone who gets paid to write, I find that laughable. That's all.

We are all entitled to our opinions, and that is exactly what these posts are, our opinions. We do ask questions, I for one have to do just that everyday. It's how I became a writer. However, gut instincts are something I developed after many years in the business. I trust them, because for me they work. Everyone else is free to act on their own. I too am paid to write. Its my full-time job.

Quote
Everyone on here has an opinion, but to make statements of dubious legality rather than ask questions is blinkered.

Exactly, everyone has a right to their opinion. I don't think anyone has made any dubious legal claims, after all we are writers not solicitors.

Quote
Funnily enough, this one thread has made me wonder if MWC is a worthwhile place to post, because so fart the views expressed seem rooted in nothing more than a desire to do down anyone and anything else.

Caffers, the whole world is made up of remarks that hurt or offend other people. It's part of life and one we all have to get used to. This thread has been a discussion, not always a healthy one, I'll concur, but a discussion nonetheless. I feel that you leaving MWC because of it is shortsighted. Most of the boards are positive, but we all have the odd rumble. that;s what happens when you get a room of several hundred creative people together, at times they will clash.

I hope you reconsider because you have some valuable points to put across, but, as someone with a daughter your age who is also prone to over reacting, I feel that your reaction to leave is a little exaggerated.

Suzie


Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: Donnettetxgirl on June 04, 2008, 11:11:02 AM
Like Suzie said, there is alot to be said for a writers gut instict. If a writer wants to become involved with the publishing industry, they should pay close attention to it. When red flags are ignored, it often leaves to tragedy & great disappointment for the writer. And when you've been taken, you are left with a lot to overcome. Some writers never overcome the horror they are left to deal with after the fact. Some never find the courage or the faith in themselves to submit again. It's a terrible feeling of crushed faith, & no writer should have to go through that. But, they do everyday. That's is why it pays to be overly cautious.

Now I'm not saying that this publishing company is not legit. What I am saying is that the way they've presented themselves here makes me think they're very unproffesional, & probably don't know what they're doing. That is the opinion I drew from what they posted. To me it was an easy conclusion to draw. But, I am a published writer, & I've taken an avid interest in the market & the do's & don't of the publishing world. To me, researching these things took precendence. I think it's wise for every writer to be armed with information before they hit the mean streets of publishing.

And there is certainly nothing wrong with writers warning other writers when they feel that something just doesn't smell right.

Donnette Smith
Author of Lady Gabriella
www.freewebs.com/romanceauthor
www.myspace.com/storycreater   
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: Caffers on June 05, 2008, 02:38:07 AM
I hope you reconsider because you have some valuable points to put across, but, as someone with a daughter your age who is also prone to over reacting, I feel that your reaction to leave is a little exaggerated.

First off, I doubt you have a daughter my age, or you'd probably be dead right now!

Secondly, my reaction to leave is based upon MWC, in my opinion, not having much to offer me. This thread demonstrates much, in that it is one of the more active. Yes, I'm all for debate, and I appreciate that people are free to offer opinions, but I had expected those involved in publishing (as many of the vocal participants claim to be) to at least allow some of the golden rules of their trade to drift into their posts.

To me, as someone who writes approximately 60-80,000 published words each month, I am always damn sure that I do not write or publish - in any format - a statement that could be construed to defame another individual or company unless I am 100 per cent sure of what I am saying. If the statement is based upon an uninformed gut reaction, I make damn sure I phrase it in such a way that a lawyer can't tie me up with my own words. In the posts made here (including those removed), I'd say at least four people broke that rule.

The OP was straightforward, and very early on it was met with some sarcastic posts, which then developed into a tirade. At that time, I thought I had simply identified a few memebers here that were prone to winding up others. Every forum has them, so I wasn't surprised. The OP then replied with a strong, and I thought clear and concise, response that did not specifically insult or condemn or question anyone's ability. Yes, it was hard, but it dealt with a bit of the sniping. Whoever wrote it followed the basic rules so no one was singled out. Then everyone acted as if they were persoanlly attacked.

Another rule of writing is that you must be objective. You must be able to sit back, detach yourself from your work or the work of others, and assess what is being said. It's a basic skill taught to even the most junior writers. No one survives years in the trade without learning that. However, very few people in this thread actually did that. When I asked someone who complained about being insulted how this had happened because I couldn't see anything directed at them personally, they accussed me of belittling their ability as a writer! They didn't actually read what was being said, because they were only interested in spewing out what they thought they knew.

Then we come to research. I don't care what you write, you have to do some research. Inevitably you will need to, and as such a writer that doesn't do research is a failed writer. That's a fact, whether you like it or not. In this thread, a question was asked of the OP, and they responded. That response was then controted into something else, questioned and ridiculed. At that point, had it been my project, I would have simply handed the posts over to a lawyer. If those involved had been memebers of the public, I would have excused them their ignorance, but for published writers and high level people in the publishing world, they deserved to be sued for being so lax.

Because I was interested, not in participation but by the project itself, I contacted those concerned, and found them willing to talk and very helpful. I also found out that they won't be doing much the way traditional publishing does things. This is despite the team involved being made of a group from the traditional writing/publishing sector. Research isn't hard. It's easy; ask questions and get answers. If you want more detail, ask other questions. It's simple research basics. If you can't get in the front door, try the back, try the windows, you can only learn more, not less!

It is not a lawful defence to simply state: "It was my opinion". You are judged on what you have written, and as members of the profession (and by using that fact to underpin the validity of your comments), legally you have offered what is classed as professional advice. That means that if the statement is not correct and accurate, or could be misconstrued by a reader, you are 100 per cent liable. You'll all know this; it's basic publishing stuff.

The ability to write without libelling or defaming someone; the ability to assess what is being said, not what you think or want to be said; basic research to ensure you've found out as much as you possibly can beofre making a definitive statement - all of these simple rudimentary elements are missing. I don't want to get into a slanging match with anyone, but without these I struggle to see how you are the successes you say you are. It's either that, or that MWC is a place where you come to do everything badly. Whichever it is, I don't see how I could stay here without constently arguing. It's this X2 thing today, tomorrow another post will incur the collective wrath of the same people.

The irony is that all those who complained were not elligible to participate in the project for a simple reason. They clearly state it is for UNPUBLISHED writers, so why bother kicking the shit out of them? Okay, I agree with you that I wouldn't write without being paid, but that's because I can pick up a paying job if I have any free time. If not, I just do what I already get paid for. However, I do know several fiction writers that would jump at this without bothering about being paid. That's a fact. People who don't want to write articles or puffs, but want to write novels, have a different long-term attitude. No one considered that either.

Finally, Donnette, I liked your statement that you know this is wrong because real publishers don't do things like this. You may or may not have heard of Sniffin' Glue. It was a hand-written photocopied mess in the late 1970s. It spawned a host of replicas, affected mainstream publishing and created a UK media star of television and radio. Mind you, that's not how publishing works. In 1982, a major publisher launched a novel that went straight to the top of the best seller charts. They promoted it by identifying areas of "prospective readers" via ACORN research, and employed students to leaflet houses there with a series of simple leaflets bearing sublime messages. Then a few days before the launch, they used the same style and layout to put the books details on billboards in the relevant areas. Mind you, that's not how publishing works. One of the biggest books by one of the world's best known pulp authors will never earn a penny, despite having been in the best seller charts for over a decade. It was over-marketed because the publisher saw more value in getting one of its products into as many homes as possible rather than making a tidy profit. Mind you, that's not how publishing works. I could go on for days; it's one of my hobbies, understanding how people get results by doing things differently.

The reality is this; if publishing worked the way it used to work, you'd still be paying the church for indulgences and producing prayer books. Times change. I buy my shopping on line, I buy my books online, I order my holidays online, I organise myself online, if I needed a job I'd look online too. Soon I'll read my books and newspapaers online too, as will you. Many publishers already have fora and websites under different names looking for talent. They face increased competition from each other and from the rise in small press activities. That, plus the fact that piracy (which never really impacted on publishing) is now a serious problem, means that they are struggling in a world where more content is freely available to fewer readers. Publishing houses are not sweatshops bulging with MSSs where a different approach will merely be lost in the sea of chaos. If you don't try new things, you don't survive. That's the one thing I do know about publishing.

And so, in answer to your comment Suzie, I don't see reconsidering the value of being here an over-reaction. It's not like I've been here long or even settled in. I merely see it as a realisation that I might be better off not swimming against the tide here, but finding somewhere where the tide runs in what I consider to be the right direction.
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: eric on June 05, 2008, 04:38:32 AM
You're right, Caffers.  MWC has nothing to offer you.  Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: SuzieHarris on June 05, 2008, 04:52:14 AM
Caffers

Quote
First off, I doubt you have a daughter my age, or you'd probably be dead right now!

For that I apologize. I thought I read that you were in your twenties in one of your posts. Looking back I can see I confused you with 'Scope'.

I can't argue with your feelings about MWC because you have to do what you think is right for you. However, I do feel that leaving over one post is a bit hasty. 

Suzie

Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: Donnettetxgirl on June 05, 2008, 09:58:26 AM
Caffers, people have differences of opinion. It doesn't matter what forum you go to, you're going to find it in abundance. Why are you letting this post upset you this much? Is it because people are expressing their opinions concerning this publishing company who posted here? If I've attacked you personally, please be so kind as to point it out to me.

As a writer I have every right in the world to express my own opinion & openly say that I disagree with the way they have stated themselved that they do business. We are writers here, with our own views, experiences & advice. We share them often. It is not to be viewed as a personal attack.

I live in America. Freedom of speech. I am not a robot who has been programmed to keep my mouth shut because someone might not like what I say.

It seems to me that you have expressed quite a few of your own opinions here. Just because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean they are launching a personal attack against you. It's just a disagreement, a different POV. Every one has one.

Donnette Smith
Author of Lady Gabriella
www.freewebs.com/romanceauthor
www.myspace.com/storycreater   
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: midnightcandle on June 05, 2008, 12:11:17 PM
I've had my share of disagreements on this forum (with people on this thread even). BUT for every disagreement , Caffers, I have received much more help and friendship. Its about being adult enough to agree to disagree. Sorry that you are going so soon. :)
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: Donnettetxgirl on June 05, 2008, 01:29:37 PM
Clearly, if your posts don't sound like the posts of someone who feels insulted, & upset, I don't know what does. they pretty much speak for themselves don't they? From what I see the only one screaming & name-calling is you.

Another thing, from what I've learned, writing experience is precious. Do we all not strive to be better writers? I know I do. And if you're referring to me, I've never looked down my nose at anyone. 

If you were to leave, I don't think you'd hurt the feelings of any of us XXXXX.

Donnette Smith
Author of Lady Gabriella
www.freewebs.com/romanceauthor
www.myspace.com/storycreater

 



Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: SuzieHarris on June 05, 2008, 02:19:45 PM
Caffers,

Quote
I don't want to be dragged down the general level here

I feel you have gone below anything you 'think' we have done wrong by using such offensive and disgusting language on a forum where CHILDREN are allowed, in your last post. How dare you swear so much on open forum. I fear that soon you won't need to leave as with that 'mouth' of yours you will be removed.

I won't sink so low as to quote what you said, but needless to say I have reported it!

I even took time out to message you to appologise for anything I said that you mght have found offensive. I withdraw that apology in the light of your obnoxious language. It was totally uncalled for an at the very best, gutter level!

Suzie
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: eric on June 05, 2008, 03:11:28 PM
Cathers

You're right, Cathers.  MWC has nothing to offer you.  Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

By the way, your definition of defamation is completely spurious.  I was a lawyer for 28 years.  How long were you a lawyer?

Among the great worries many writers have are threats and slap suits from offended publishers based on ridiculous theories to shut up writers who are simply being honest about what they see.  I have watched this happen too many times to count.  I am sure you are not doing that.  But you appear to be throwing your weight around just to cause trouble on the forum.  What is up with that?

In case you don't know, I'll tell you.  You've edged over into trolling.  We don't appreciate trolls on this forum.  And watch your language.  You can get away with that elsewhere, but not on this forum.  Nine year old girls read your spouting.

Again, Cathers, as you so cogently observed, MWC has nothing to offer you.  Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

What's the problem, can't work the knob?  It's a simple research problem.  The exit is right over there.  Just go through it.  Man up and do what you said you would do.

MWC has nothing to offer you.  Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Cathers.
Title: Re: X2 MANIFESTO
Post by: Symphony on June 06, 2008, 03:25:19 AM
Caffers as made his wishes to leave MWC quite clear. Bye bye and thanks for all the fish. Meanwhile, this topic is really serving no purpose and has little any more to do with writing so I hope you don't mind if I now declare it locked!

Thanks for your support. Let's put those feelings into the next gutsy and inspired chapter of our respective novels/stories/poems ...

Respectfully,

Symph